When is the Rapture? 1 of 12
Last modified 2025-03-01 .......................12 page intro
The answer, in brief is:
The Rapture happened when it needed to happen most i.e. in 65 AD.
When did Gods saints most need to get “snatched away” in history?
Answer: in the midst of the Great Tribulation, when Christians were dropping like flies, getting killed by the counterfeit Jews i.e. Talmudic Jews (who ever-hate “the way” Acts 19:9,23 22:4) and getting killed by the Romans under Nero. As Ed Stevens so able-ly points out in Jesus’ Parable of the Tares and the wheat (Matt. 13:24-43), the wheat is gathered (raptured) into the barn first (66AD per Ed Stevens, 65AD according to me Francis Kuhlman), and then the tares were burned (AD 70) see https://www.preterist.org/products/parables-of-tares-ten-virgins-3-tracks/.
To be more exact; Ed Stevens places the Rapture at June of 66 AD see page 161 Final_Decade-Stevens.pdf
I place it in October of 65 AD, mostly because the count of years comes out better in 65.
HouseKeeping Note: I use the notation Wars B2-C18-S1 to mean Book 2, Chapter 18, Section 1 or sometimes just 2.18.1 of Josephus WARS OF THE JEWS William Whiston edition. It will always be the Whiston edition (not the Thackery or other translations) unless otherwise noted in the sentence quoted. Also, I use the term "Talmudic Jews" to mean counterfeit Jews, those who say they are Jews but are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan Rev 2:8.
I realize that the Talmud was not compiled until the 3-6th centuries AD, but the same spirit of Anti-Christ (against the messiah) pervades those books as indwells the Jews of Christs day. So I refer to them all as Talmudic Jews i.e. counterfeit Jews. Doubtless I will get lots of criticism saying Francis! the Talmud was not even written till the 3rd century AD, so how can you blame all the sin of the New Testament Jews, onto the Talmudic Jews of today? Different books, different people". I say "not in spirit" they werent. Both set aside the Scriptures (Torah) in favor of the Talmud (traditions of men); Both are Anti-Christ. Both use the same tactics of deception, lies, murder, bribery, blackmail, persecution, etc. And if Christ were walking on planet earth today, He would be fighting for the Kingdom of God, exposing the Talmudic Jews, and they would be plotting His assassination.
By the way, just as a side note, for all you pastors and Bible Scholars out there a) despairing of creating controversy, and b) thinking this is such well plowed ground, (the rapture) it is not worth your time, "there is nothing new under the sun". Know this.
We dont have all the works of the early church. In fact some 380 volumes of what we have as writings of the early church, are still in Greek and Latin, waiting to be translated into english.
Eusebius, who is considered the first historian of the church, who lived and wrote in the 4th century, i.e. the 300's AD, interprets Matt 24 in light of 70AD. So dont feel guilty about parting ways with the vast majority, i.e. your fellow colleagues, who are futurists, pre-mills, Dispensational, (and in my opinion, though I cant prove it, professors at Talmudic Jew funded institutions as in Dallas Theological Seminary, ORU, Jerry Fallwells Liberty U, all the major seminaries). They are biased.
They are NEVER going to disparage the Talmudic Jews, to tell the truth about the counterfeit Jews, i.e. preach Replacement Theology. Their funding comes from those who can print money at will, i.e. our Zionist Jewish Fed. and all its NGOs and subsidiaries. Well heeled thru the drug money, porn money, govts. they have destabilized, and wars they have started and land and resources they have confiscated. Take to heart JFKs parting address "they have conscripted VAST resources" Just google "JFK we are opposed speech by, ..."
Thats who has been educating your congregation thru the media, thru hollywood (Schindlers List, Bonhoffer, etc.) and thru the American pro-Jew textbook educational system. So you should rightly fear losing half your congregation, if you start preaching this stuff. But take heart. You will also attract to your congregation, the truth seekers, the preppers, the Biblical Conservatives, those willing to be the church militant, an army on the march willing to fight for the kingdom of God, not just a bunch of pew sitters, who want a social club that preserves the status quo, who will scatter at the first sign of economic collapse, or war, or national calamity. You, dear pastor, can either be a member of Elijah's school of the prophets, or a member of: I Kings 18:19 Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table.
So, back to our topic, When was the Rapture hinges on the question When was the Great Tribulation
Let us examine the Scriptures that apply, and see what actually happened in history.
Rapture File-1 Intro
Just as the Jews could never figure out from the Old Testament, when the messiah would come, and what would be the manner of his coming, because there seemed to be conflicting verses, some pointed to a lamb-like messiah that would suffer for his peoples sins, and be killed in an ignoble way, while other verses portrayed a conquering messiah. Because the Jews did not count on two comings of their messiah, the first lamb like, and the second, as a conqueror, they were in the dark.
So today, most commentators go astray, because they do not recognize that there are two tribulations spoken of in Scripture (Christian and Jewish). They happened at two different times (although very near to each other), and to two different peoples (Christians vs Jews), though all in the same geography (the Roman Known World, or "civilized world", greek word for this is "Oikumene").
Thus, by implication, there are multiple "comings of the Lord". The two major ones are, the Rapture in October of 65AD and the "coming in wrath and judgment" against the counterfeit Jews who had committed the unpardonable sin (sinning against the Holy Spirit, by persecuting His people, even putting them to death.) So, from the second year of Albinus reign, when the Jewish 7 year Tribulation began in August 63, up until the destruction of the temple in Aug 70 can be considered the "coming in wrath and judgment" of the Lord against the Jews (aka the soon coming day of the Lord spoken of all over the N.T.) For more on the 2nd coming of the Lord, download has-jesus-already-come-back-since-his-ascension.mp3
If you dont believe "it is spoken of, all over the N.T."? Consider all these verses: Matt 24:34 it will happen to THIS generation to which Christ was speaking at that time, Heb 10:37 it will happen in yet a VERY LITTLE WHILE; Matt 10:23 you (first century Christians) wont even finish going thru the cities of Israel before He comes; Mt 16:28 He will come BEFORE some of you standing here, die (taste death); Luke 21:36 "about to take place", 1 John 2:18 Little Children, it is the last hour, James 5:8 it is "at hand"; Romans 16:20 "soon crush Satan under your feet"; 1 Pet 4:7 the end of all things is "at hand"; Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; Rev 22:20 Surely I come quickly; Rev 1:1 must shortly come to pass; Rev 1:3 for the time is at hand); Revelation 3:10 Because thou
(church in Philadelphia) hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee
(by rapturing you out of there)from the hour of temptation,
(really an hour of trial and suffering, i.e. the 2nd half of the Great Trib) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Ignore William Whistons footnote in his translation of Josephus starting the Jewish trib from the time Vespasian entered the land Spring of AD 67) down to 70AD. He goes with a 3.5 year trib i.e. time, times and a half a time. based on Daniels 70th week Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
And even though he does not mention it, he probably is also leaning on:
Daniel 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Unlike Whiston, and the vast majority of futurists and pre-mills out there (that means 90% of America's pastors, virtual Baptists all) who are going by the face value of these terms, being superficial, and not reconciling their systematic theology with their hermanutics (their exposition of these verses) I choose the theological intrepretations of the words, in these verses instead of the "face value" meanings. So, I (and so should you) choose to differ from 90% of the American Christianity that has ever pondered these verses.
Why? Because they are not factoring in the Rapture, into history.
1) I take "the many" in Dan 9:27 to include "the many" of both Jews and Christians, i.e. in both of the only two salvation covenants that humanity had with God in the time of the New Testament, (the period Daniel 9 and 12 are talking about). So "the many" in Daniel 9:27 includes both Jews and Christians, now, how does God "confirm the covenant" or confirm each covenant. By testing them to see if they will perform according to their respective covenants, and then God will perform His part of the Covenant, by rewarding them with what they deserve for keeping or breaking their covenant. Would the Christians persevere in the faith, even under persecution until the end, if So, Jesus will reward them with Dominion on Earth as the new priestly line (to take over after Judaism is obsoleted, done away Heb 8:13) and reward them with heaven, when they leave planet earth, and even shorten their tribulation by rapturing them off planet earth.
Likewise the Jews are going to get the reward they deserve for their specific performance, under their covenant, and that reward will come DURING this CONFIRMING THE COVENANT time. The covenant with the Jews was:
To be a light to the nations,
Isaiah 42:6 "I the LORD have called unto you in righteousness, and have taken hold of your hand, and submitted you as the people's covenant, as a light unto the nations"
To be priests to serve the nations. Israel was supposed to be a priest to the nations (Ex. 19:6)
. Her water would cause their trees to grow. This was signified to all men when Israel came out of Egypt, for “then they came to Elim, where they were twelve springs of water and seventy date palms, and they camped there beside the waters” (Ex. 15:27)
. Seventy is the number of the nations of the world (Gen. 10)
. Israel, at the Feast of Tabernacles, sacrificed seventy bulls for the nations of the world, a substitutionary atonement for them offered by the priestly nation on their behalf (Numbers 28:13-32; Haggai 2:1-9; Zechariah 14:16-21)
. For more on this go to James B Jordans excellent work. https://theopolisinstitute.com/priests-to-the-nations/
To model what men made-in-the-image-of-God should be like
Jesus modeled perfectly what men made in the image of God should be like, but of the Jews, Jesus said John 8:48 "I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me."; John 8:47 "you are not of God"; John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
To walk in the ways of their Father Abraham
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. NAS this Abraham DID NOT DO.
To recognize the day of visitation of their messiah
Luke 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep (hemn) thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
and at the triumphal entry, the messianic quote shouted by the crowd: Luke 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. Luke 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
To Rejoice at the coming of their messiah,
Psalm 89:38 But You have rejected and refused, You have been full of wrath against (Lit. "with") Your anointed. 39You have repudiated (scornfully rejected) the covenant of Your servant; You have profaned his crown in the dust (Lit to the ground).
To Crown their messiah King
Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
To serve their messiah
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and (but) his own received him not. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
And as far as heaven goes, for the Jews
Heb 4:3 NAS; they shall not enter My rest,and Matthew 8:11,12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness; Jn 8:24 if ye believe not that I am he
(the messiah, the Christ), ye shall die in your sins.
That would make you an anti-Christ, if you deny that Jesus is the Christ.
What reward do the Jews have coming during this "confirm the covenant with the many" period?
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Luke 21:23 ...for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Daniels metal man, head of gold, chest of silver, belly of bronze, feet of iron and clay)
Note: Jordan says even though the Roman empire didn't end in 70 AD, (technically it ended in 476 AD, but the Romans considered it almost dead or temporarily dead in 69 AD (year of 4 emperors and great civil wars and provincial rebellions), per Tacitus, Histories 1:2-3., then it came back to life under the Flavians, and per Rev. 13:3,4) the times of the Gentiles did end then, because "gentile" is a Jewish distinction. If you have no more Jews, you have no more gentiles (non-Jews) since EVERYBODY is now a non-Jew, and it is meaningless to call EVERYONE a GENTILE. Thus the times of the Gentiles had to come to an end, when Judaism ended, i.e. 70 AD. Also, as to Rome being the beast of Rev. which died and came back to life, Rome died scripturally in 70 AD because Rome as a protective vessel of the Jews (Daniels metal man) ended in 70AD. Was Rome a protective vessel of the Jews (just as Babylon, Persia, Greece, and finally Rome were) Consider General Titus reply back to the John and the Jews defending Jerusalem against the Romans back in 70 AD, Josephus, whiston edition, page 584 or B6-C4-S2
Gods opinion of Jewish covenant keeping and the reward they can expect to get during this CONFIRMING THE COVENANT TIME can be summed up in this verse:
Matthew 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, “If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would NOT have been partakers with them in the shedding of the blood of the prophets, therefore you are witnesses against yourselves, that you are in fact the sons of the murderers of the prophets. Fill up then, the measure of wrath of your fathers. Serpents, Brood of Vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell, Behold,I am sending you prophets, and wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and some you will crucify, and some U will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on YOU may fall all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel, to the blood of Zachariah, son of Berechia, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar, Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon THIS generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her, how I longed to gather you under my wings as a hen does her chicks, but you would not have it, see your house is left to you desolate.
Just as a side note: who was Zachariah, son of Berechia, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar? This is Jesus speaking of the future as certainly as if it had already passed. See Josephus p 534 William Whiston translation, or Wars of the Jews B4-C5-S4. Zacharius the son of Baruch was an eminent righteous man, and wealthy and so he could have done the zealots much harm if he were found to be not on their side. Seeking his estate, they set up a mock trial of 70 prominent citizens as judges. When Zacharius was found “not guilty” by the 70, the zealots slew Zacharius “in the middle of the temple, saying “and now thou hast our judgment too” and they threw his body down from the temple into the valley.
1) For “all the righteous blood of the Old World Creation to be laid on "this generation” it had to include blood up to 70 AD. 2) a generation is approx. 40 years, and if Christ died around 30 AD, then the 70 AD judgment would have also have happened to “this generation". The last 7 years of "this generation" is the 70th week of Daniel, for the Jews, i.e. from Oct 63 thru Oct 70.
For the Christians 70th week of Daniel i.e. Daniels other people, which the Angel in Dan 9 and Dan 12 speaks of too, that 70th week runs from 62AD the death of James the Just, Jesus brother, and it includes the deaths of Peter, Paul, John, and all the apostles, and the Christian Great Tribulation up to 69AD. But the last 3.5 years of the Christian Great Trib dont matter much, since all Christians currently alive whose names were in the book of life were raptured out of there in Oct of 65AD. This did include the Apostle John, whom I assume got raptured per John 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Who says that "all" the apostles had to die for their faith? Why would Jesus say the above, unless John got special treatment. Even Peter, James, & Paul, remained till the coming of the Lord in wrath and judgment against the Jews, that soon coming spoken of all over the N.T. So Jesus had to be talking about a different "till I come" coming, than the coming spoken of all over the N.T. I believe Jesus was talking about the rapture, regarding John. Wearing the martyrs crown is a GREAT reward up in heaven, and John has to go without. As do most of us soft American Christians.
So Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week
means a 7 year Tribulation for the counterfeit Jews, (as well as the Christians). Now when the Judaic covenant ended in 70 AD, there were no more Jews, so their tribulation had to be considered ended then, even though some ethnic Jews were still alive after 70 AD, sold into slavery. These men, former Jews were no longer defined by a covenant with Yahweh, and their "Jewishness" was always defined by religion, not by race, per Romans 9:6-8
Now these "ethnic Jews" were just common men, like any gentile prisoner, defeated in a War with Rome, lucky to not have been killed w. the sword, or by the gang warfare in Jerusalem before the Romans broke thru. Their tribulation continued on, for the rest of their lives, because after the temple came down, no more Jews, no more covenant people called Jews, so no more trib on them, even though the ones that survived the siege of Jerusalem were sold into slavery and served as slaves probably for the rest of their lives, and their leaders that were allowed to live were drug to death thru streets of Rome at Titus' triumphal parade, in the ensuing months. So it could be argued their "tribulation" continued far past 70 AD. But that private "travail" of these prisoners was not part of the literal 7 year great trib. prophecied for that whole religion, in Daniels time.
Was this 63-70AD period the time of Jacobs Trouble?
I used to say no, because of the context, (Jeremiah preaching repentence to a dis-obedient Jewish Nation, just before Babylon carried them all away into captivity, 586 BC) but since having done a more careful reading and meditated on this section, I have changed my mind. God here is intentionally mixing in Scripture his times of judgment to confuse the evil side. Lucifer and his modern day prophets of Baal can read Scripture too. If God plainly spelled out every prophecy, the evil side would lie in wait and be much more effective in resisting Gods plans on the earth, as they did w. Herod killing all boy babies in Bethlehem shortly after Jesus birth. I used to say "This Jewish Tribulation I have discussed above from 63 to 70AD is not the time of Jacobs Trouble." The Dispys get this term "Jacobs Trouble", from Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
I used to reason this way:
1) The Jews never got saved out of anything between 63 and 70 AD, unless you count Cestius retreat from Jerusalem on Oct 27th 66AD as getting "saved out of Jacobs Trouble". Problem with that is, it led to much more serious problems for the Jews. Now Vespasian would come with twice as many men, in 67AD, and in the mean time the whole country had to prep for war against the Romans, that means pile up supplies, weapons, train, and establish rank and command and control. Of which, Josephus now a general in the rebel forces, was against-his-will, recruited.
2) Jeremiah, writing some 663 years prior to this 70AD Jewish Tribulation, was talking about events in his own day. Jeremiah 30:7 was talking about the impending Babylonian captivity, out of which the Lord would save them. That was how I reasoned originally.
But, now, upon careful reflection I believe God has switched meanings and time frames in Jer 30:7-10. Here Jacob and Israel really are the Christians, the true Jews (Rm 2:28) of the 60's and 70's i.e when the Rapture happened in Neros day. Jeremiah, as you know was all doom and gloom in his prophecies RE the nation of Israel. So God here, wants to give the Israelites of Jeremiah's day a little hope. it will not ALWAYS be doom and gloom for Jacob-Israel. One day far in the future Jacob will once again serve "David their king, Whom I will raise up for them."'This can only be Jesus, the Son of David. Which also matches with verse 7 "But he shall be saved out of it" (via the Rapture in 65AD) Jer 30: "8:in that day, I will break his yoke from your neck, and will burst your bonds, Foreigners shall no more enslave them, but they shall serve the Lord their God." That cannot be true of 586BC Israel. Their Babylonian bonds were never burst till 70 years later, and even then they were just replaced by Persian bonds. Foreigners continued to enslave the Jews right up to the Maccabbean revolt 167 BC, then they were independent for a short time till they begged Pompey (Roman General) to come and rule over them to re-establish peace. They could not rule themselves peaceably and prosperously ever since the days of Ezra-Nemehiah. This God created world empires to rule over them, to keep the peace, during which times they usually prospered, since they are vampires and blood suckers and ticks. They need a host to suck the blood out of. The Gentiles have always been willing to provide it, until they wise up and kick the Jews out of their countries. Jer 30:9 Therefore don not fear., O My servant Jacob, says the Lord, Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I wlll save you from afar, and your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rese and be quiet, and no one shall make him afraid. For I am with you says the Lord to save you; That ends the prophecy about the far future, i.e. in the first century AD. Now back to 586BC God says Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, yet I will not make a complete end of you, But I will correct you in justice, and will not let you go altoghteher unpunished. For thus says the Lord, Your afflicttion is incurable, ... This was all true of the Jews in 586 BC.
So, yes, Jer 30:7-10 the time of Jacobs Trouble DOES refer to the Great Trib of the first century. And it is in fact just another Rapture proof verse. How Did God "save Jacob-Israel from afar" in that day? verse 11 For I am with you, says the LORD to save you" Refers to the Rapture. But in verse 12, God switches back to Jeremiah's contemporary context and here You and Your refers back to the rebellious Jews about to be carried away by Babylon in 586BC.'
let us return to when to date the Rapture, and how the Great Tribulation affected the Rapture.
The Christian Great Trib. started with the death of James the Just, brother of Jesus, at the hands of the Jews in Jerusalem. For more on this download:
Lecture Rapture-1
Roman Historian, Tacitus (56AD - 120 AD) on the Christians:
“But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor (Nero) and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration (comment: burning of Rome in 64 AD, 10 out of 14 wards of the city destroyed with hundreds of thousands homeless from a fire that the wind blew out of control for 10 days, causing a HUGE outcry against the emperor) was the result of an order given by Nero. (who reportedly wanted to clear the slums of Rome and build a glorius domus aurea “the golden house” a 1 sq mile palace and grounds with a 98 foot high bronze statue of Nero in its vestibule). Consequently, to get rid of the report (that Nero had the fire started intentionally), Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called “Chrestians” by the populace."
"Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition (comment: that He rose from the dead, and is now LORD OF ALL), thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular."
" Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all (Christians) who pleaded guilty (of being Christians); then, upon their information, (who among their family and friends knew about their faith, i.e. aiding and abetting), an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. comment: how the Romans deduced that Christians had a hatred of mankind is beyond me. Christians are the love thy neighbor as thyself crowd, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you, people. And as far as taxes go, Jesus said to pay your taxes to Rome, "render unto Caesar, the things that are Caesars". I think Tacitus was confusing what Rome considered a subset of Judaism (Christianity) with Judaism itself, of which Paul said 1 Thessalonians 2:15 "they are not pleasing to God, but are hostile to all men"
But, anyway, continuing on with Tacitus quote. "Mockery of every sort was added to their (Christians 64-65 AD) deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.” Tacitus, Annals, 15.44
Consider also: Suetonius: The Lives of the Twelve Caesars; written in AD 121 during the reign of the emperor Hadrian, Chapter 38 "He (Nero) spared, moreover, neither the people of Rome, nor the capital of the country. {Nero was} Somebody in conversation saying “ἐμοῦ θανόντος γαῖα μιχθήτω πυρί “When I am dead let fire devour the world. Nay," said he, "let it be while I am living" [ἐμοῦ ζῶντος] And he acted accordingly; for, pretending to be disgusted with the old buildings, and the streets, he set the city on fire so openly, that many of consular rank caught his own household servants on their property with tow, and torches in their hands, but durst not meddle with them.
There being near his Golden House some granaries, the site of which he exceedingly coveted, they were battered as if with machines of war, and set on fire, the walls being built of stone. During six days and seven nights this terrible devastation continued, (note, others claim 10 days because the fire was put out after 6 days, but restarted, of its own accord and burned for 4 more) the people being obliged to fly to the tombs and monuments for lodging and shelter. Meanwhile, a vast number of stately buildings, the houses of generals celebrated in former times, and even then still decorated with the spoils of war, were laid in ashes; as well as the temples of the gods, which had been vowed and dedicated by the kings of Rome, and afterwards in the Punic and Gallic wars: in short, everything that was remarkable and worthy to be seen which time had spared. (see footnote 1)
This fire he beheld from a tower in the house of Maecenas, and, "being greatly delighted," as he said, "with the beautiful effects of the conflagration," he sung a poem on the ruin of Troy, in the tragic dress he used on the stage. To turn this calamity to his own advantage by plunder and rapine, he promised to remove the bodies of those who had perished in the fire, and clear the rubbish at his own expense: suffering no one to meddle with the remains of their property. But he not only received, but exacted contributions on account of the loss, until he had exhausted the means both of the provinces and private persons." footnote 1: This destructive fire occurred in the end of July, or the beginning of August, A.U.C.816, 64A.D. It was imputed to the Christians, and drew on them the persecutions mentioned in c. xvi. Publishing Editor. J. Eugene Reed. Alexander Thomson. Philadelphia. Gebbie & Co. 1889.
>And so, it is the main theme of this series of articles, that to spare His church from going through more of the Great Tribulation, God raptured her out there.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Now with interpretation:
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman
(the church in the Roman known world, [known by the Greek word "Oikumene"] not the Eskimos, not North America, South America, China. Perhaps not even Ethiopia where Phillip baptized the Ethiopian Eunuch and we can assume a Christian church existed. No, only the Oikumene, the Roman civilized world.)were given two wings of a great eagle
(two wings is merely symbolism for "the ability to fly", the great eagle is Jesus Christ), that she might fly into the wilderness
(get snatched out of there, to a remote place of safety, i.e. the rapture), into her place, where she is nourished
(rests in heaven from the great Trib.) for a time, and times, and half a time,
(three and 1/2 years, until the Great Trib is over. from the face of the serpent
After that she doesn't go back down to earth, she doesn't leave the wilderness, no, "where she will ever be with the Lord" 1 Thess 4:17)
So the church in the civilized Roman World was persecuted for the first 3 and 1/2 years of the Great Trib, then raptured off planet earth, for the remaining 3 and 1/2 years of the Great Trib.
Rapture 2 intro
Then the scene in the Bible shifts to back-on-earth where the elect started getting saved again (especially the 144,000 Jewish converts Rev 7:4 who probably were all martyred, per Revelation 6:11) continuing with the age old struggle of good verses evil. Revelation 12:15 And the serpent
(The serpent is the devil, but Nero is his primary tool. Nero is also the sea beast of Rev, also the beast from out of the abyss) cast out of his mouth water as a flood
(Neros' Legions) after the woman
(Gods elect, down here on earth, who got saved too late for the rapture), that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. Revelation 12:16 And the earth
(frequently in Rev. the earth or the land=Judaism, the sea= the gentiles) helped the woman,
(inadvertently, against the earths will) and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Judaism did this by absorbing Roman wrath when Judaism declared her independence from Rome, forcing Nero to respond by sending down Vespasian and Titus legions.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
After Rome gets a good emperor like Vespasian, Rome is no longer "dragon controlled" as it was under Nero, but there are other ways to make war on the saints, thru their perennial 3 enemies, the world, the flesh, and the devil, and I might add thru false Judaism which is ever after this, the synagogue of Satan, having intense hatred for Christ and Christians, for destroying their temple, destroying the Sanhedren, destroying the Levitical priesthood, Interpreting the whole old testament as typological of the future messiah, instead of glorifying Abrahams fleshly descendants, and Moses and the Law, of which the false Jews of today, claim to be the custodians of. Christ and Christianity are the death knell of Judaism. The false Jews of today know this, but most Christians in America, taught by the Dispys of course, dont know this, they dont even know they are at war, nor who the real enemy is. These naive Dispy Christians (I estimate that would be 90% of the evangelical Christians in America today) assume we are in the end times, and Christian persecution will get worse and worse, till the rapture magically (they hope within this decade) jerks them out of the mess they have allowed to take over.
In 2021, The Pew Research Center reported that "24% of U.S. adults describe themselves as born-again or evangelical Protestants." So if you throw in their children that comes to about 1/3 of all Americans or approx 100 million people, falsely waiting for a future rapture. This paralizes them. They think, the destruction of America (and indeed all earth, per the book of Revelation, where their bible mistakeny translates the Greek Gamma Eta as "earth" rather than "land" as in Land of Israel) is prophecied by God and since there is nothing they can do about it, they might as well not-get-political, not-take-action. Why polish brass on a sinking ship? After all, the first century apostles didnt get political did they? Jesus didnt get political did He? So they reason, if we want to be New Testament Christians, lets just do evangelism, and leave the politics to the world.
Combine that poison with the snake venom that the US Govt puts out, strictly enforcing a "separation of church and state" doctrine, supposedly enshrined in our constitution, and you have the powerful concoction that has put American Christians to sleep, and caused the ruination of our country. I will show you later, why we DONT WANT TO BE a New Testament Church (we are not in the end times now, as the New Testament Church was back then, We are in the millennium. We have a different set of marching orders, different set of rules of engagement for the enemy). So in certain aspects, we DONT WANT TO BE LIKE THE APOSTLES, NOR LIKE JESUS. Did Jesus ever marry? Did he ever have children? Did he ever build a house and settle down on an estate? Did He ever save up for a retirement? OK then, DONT YOU EVER DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS. You can quickly see why this "be like Jesus" policy has its limitations.
So, what are the tactics of our enemy the Talmudists (false Jews or counterfeit Jews). Well, first of all, gain control of the government. This theme has happened before in History, when the counterfeit Jews were in bed with (controlling in fact) Nero and his govt. The counterfeit Jews were very pleased that they got Rome to crucify Christ, got Nero to start the Great Trib against the Christians, thru Poppea Neros' Jewish wife who suggested he blame the Great Fire of Rome in 64 on the Christians, and Christians were dropping like flies. Judaism couldn't have been happier.
But then Nero got greedy and wanted the gold in Jerusalems temple, and sent down Albinus and Florus to start a war with Judaism (i.e. the Beast turned on the harlot Rev 17:15-17 fulfilled). Florus was successful in causing the counterfeit Jews to rebel in 66, and now Nero had to fully turn on the counterfeit Jews and re-conquer them. God is fully capable of pitting one evil powerhouse against another. This may give todays American Christians some hope.
Under emperor Vespasian (69-79AD) the church is no longer persecuted as she was during the Great Trib. Though there are minor persecutions recurring again and again, (emperor Domitian) up until Constantine 306-337. Revelation has been fulfilled (just the first 20 chapters) by 70 AD, and Rome is no longer the beast. However since Rev is written in symbols, it can partially repeat through-out history. Today, we have a harlot (Judaism) drunk with the blood of the saints (Mossads murders) riding a beast (USA and China, and every other country controlled by the false Jews).
Now, I can already hear my critics saying, Francis, are you not mixing your metaphors? How can Roman Legions under Vespasian and Titus be Gods Army in Matthew 22:4-7 and here in Rev 12 be the dragons army? All I can say is God uses different armies throughout history to do His will. He uses:
Assyria in Isaiah 10:5,6 Joel 2:11
the Babylonians in Ezekiel 29:19,20 and Isaiah 13
and the Romans in Matthew 22:4-7
Add to that the fact that Revelation is a highly symbolic book. It consists of a non congruent series of visions by John, spread across several months, while exiled at Patmos. And whenever you see "and I saw" or similar language, it may mean that John is seeing a whole new vision, with different metaphors, (i.e. same symbols but assigned different meanings) unrelated to the last vision he wrote down, a month ago. For example. Who is "the woman" in Rev? Sometimes it is the church, as in Rev 12:1 the Woman clothed with the sun, moon, and stars, and in Rev 17:4 it is Judaism, the harlot drunk with the blood of the saints. Frequently John starts his historical clock over again, in Rev. when he starts telling a new story.
Now, if you dont believe that the rapture happened back in 65-66 AD, if you’d rather take the popular, modern pre-mill position, or a-mill position, both of whom place the rapture off in our future, then you make the Apostle Paul out to be a fool. Paul makes the following statement, all the while knowing full well that the Great Tribulation is soon to be upon all his churches. (soon, as in within a decade).
1 Thess 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
(the Rapture in 65-66 AD) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
What? Did Paul say to comfort one another, with the fact that a rapture will happen sometime 2000 years in the future?
How stupid of Paul to imply "Just hold on till then, you Christians of THIS GENERATION" per Jesus in Matt 24, of whom He said
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Yea, Just take comfort in that rescue that will happen 2000 years too late to be of any help for you.
Stupid Paul. Better to not waste our time, (here in AD 51-66) telling us about a 2000 year old, too late, rescue.
Which brings up another question, when was Thessalonians written. Let us go with Ed Stevens Chronology.
AD 31-38 ---------- Matthew
AD 38-44 ---------- Mark
AD 51-52 ---------- Galatians
AD 51-52 ---------- 1 Thessalonians
Note Nero became emperor at age 17 in 54AD, he was mad and bad by 62 when he poisoned Burris and demanded to marry Poppea (which Agripina, his mother refused, so he killed his mother, and later on kicked his Jewish wife Poppea to death), and forced Seneca (in 65) (his other restraining tutor, other than Burris) to commit suicide.
AD 51-52 ---------- 2 Thessalonians
AD 57--------------- 1 Corinthians
AD 57--------------- 2 Corinthians
AD 58--------------- Romans
AD 61--------------- Luke
AD 61-62 ---------- Acts
AD 60-62 ---------- John
AD 61-62 ---------- James
AD 61-62 ---------- 1, 2, 3 John
AD 62-63----------- Revelation
AD 62-63----------- Ephesians
AD 62-63----------- Colossians
AD 62-63----------- Philemon
AD 62-63----------- Philippians
AD 62-63----------- Hebrews
Mid-63 -------------- Titus
Mid-63 -------------- 1 Timothy
Mid-63 -------------- 1 Peter
Late 63 ------------- 2 Timothy
Late 64 ------------- Jude
Late 64 ------------- 2 Peter
But, what if Paul wasn’t talking about 2000 years in the future? What if he knew that the rapture would happen SOON, even sometime prior to 70 AD.
What if the “we which are alive and remain”
referred to Pauls’ Contemporaries, of that First Century generation. Not to us today. Then taking comfort in Pauls’ words makes perfect sense.
Likewise, Paul showing me a mystery that is going to take place in my lifetime, even in the next decade or so, is of GREAT interest to me. But it seems like science fiction or a waste of my time, if the “mystery”
is for Christians 2000 years in the future.
1 Corinthians 15:51-58
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
And how about Jesus? Did He give any hint as to when the Rapture might take place?
There are a few key verses that clue us in, but all of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 (all the pre-cursors (microcosms) of Revelation) deserve to be exposited. So let us start off with the "few key verses"
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Now, the normal person reading "this generation shall not pass" would think it applied to the generation that is currently hearing Jesus speak these words, i.e. the 30 to 70 AD generation, not MY GENERATION today 2000 years later. But Dispy theologians love to scripture twist, and so have come up with an alternate interpretation for "this generation". They say it means the generation that sees all these things happen, whenever that is, could be 1000 years from now, could be tomorrow. So we need to look at a few more clues.
Jesus while carrying His cross said to the Jewish women weeping for Jesus, Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30Then “ ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’(Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?) 31For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”
So whatever great calamity that was coming, would affect those daughters of Jerusalem Jesus was speaking to, and their immediate children. Not us 2000 years later.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
This would seem to be ironclad, Jesus had to come in his kingdom with in the lifetime of "some standing here".
But never under estimate the power of the scripture twisting Dispys. They say, Oh Yea, the "seeing the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" was just the transfiguration a few days later, or they say, it was just the triumphal entry into Jerusalem, riding on a donkey, just a week after that. The problem with that logic is, it makes Jesus out to be an idiot.
If your pastor said in the midst of church "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see me walk thru that church door again." They would think, SO WHAT, next sunday is only 1 week away, and you come to church every Sunday, you are the pastor. Tell me something I dont know, dont act like you are saying something momentous by saying "hey I predict that the Sun will rise in the East Tomorrow". So the Transfiguration 3 days later or the triumphal entry, are too close to Jesus statement to carry any weight of notarity to justify "truely I say unto you".
Jesus said to Peters' query "Lord what about this man?"
To which Jesus replied "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you".
. It must have been possible for John to stay on earth until Jesus came again in His kingdom in the glory of his Father with His angels. Which meant either John is still alive today, or Jesus had to come within 40 years of so, of making that statement, assuming John lived a normal life span.
And this does not even scratch the surface of all the multitude of verses that say I am coming "quickly", my coming is "near" Soon coming day of the Lord, At Hand, etc.
But, continuing on with the exposition of Matthew 24 in hopes of pinpointing the Great Tribulation and the Rapture.
Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(actual Greek word here is “aion” should be translated “age”, not “world”. The end of the Old Testament. “age” is vastly different from what modern Americans think of as the end of the world, yet by translating AION in the KJV as “world” many a baby Christian pushes all events of Mt 24 off into their future, when in reality, all of Mt 24 happened prior to 70 AD.
Matt 24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh
(some trannys say “life”) be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Verse 22 "no life" or "no flesh" would have been saved, can be taken 2 ways. The Arminian will say (see you must persevere in the faith. Christians are expected to be faithful even unto death, it is he who perseveres unto the end that shall be saved ... Thus Jesus knowing that many if not MOST Christians would not be able to bear up under the GREAT TRIBULATION, made sure that that time was "cut short", they got raptured out of there, with their faith intact) So, you could say the rapture did happen “mid trib”. To the Arminian, "no life would have been saved" here means eternal salvation. IE virtually everyone would have caved into Rome, just to save their earthly lives and would have given up the faith, thereby losing their eternal life, i.e. losing their salvation.
The Calvinist must reject this logic, because he believes in election before the foundation of the world, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints (God causes us to persevere, so that our calling and election is made sure). If we are elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, then we can NEVER lose our election, we WILL persevere unto the end, not by our own strength, but by Gods grace. Likewise if we are regenerate, we can never lose our regeneration. But just being in the covenant, i.e. called a Christian, doesn't mean we are either elect or regenerate. Thus we can lose our calling and if you will, lose our "apparent salvation" by having our names erased from the book of life.
That means the book of life is not the list of all elect, nor of all regenerate, it is just a list of who is in the covenant at this time. Some will get erased out later on.
That age old debate of whether Christians can "lose their salvation or not" should never be entered into. When are you saved? The problem is you WERE saved, you ARE being saved, and you WILL be saved, according to Scripture. It could be argued that at election time (before the foundation of the world), you were elected to be saved, thus you were saved from hell even that early. It can be argued that until you get regenerated, you aren't saved, and regeneration happens between your birth and your death.
It can be argued that you arent officially saved from hell, until great white throne judgment day when God passes judgment on you and says to you, "enter into the kingdom". When someome asks you if you believe Christians can lose their salvation, dont answer that question. It is a trap. Instead answer: The elect cannot get un-elected. The regenerate cannot get un-regenerated again, but those in the covenant, in church, or even some called Christians or some claiming to be Christian, can and will be sent to hell after their names get erased from the book of life.
So, in actuality, even going thru the GREAT TRIB would not rock the faith of the regenerate. No, "no life would have been saved"
here, means virtually all (i.e. most of) the Christians would have physically died as martyrs in the Roman empire. Rome and the counterfeit Jews would have virtually gotten them all.
Evidently Jesus counts it as "saving your life" if you got raptured out of there. This may seem strange to us, when it rather appears as ending your life on earth, but imagine yourself in the Roman Arena, the lions have just been released and they are charging you. You pray "Lord Jesus Save Me". What do you mean by that prayer? Give me eternal salvation? No, you have had that assurance since day 1 when you first got saved (gave your life to Christ). Rather you mean, "save me from the lions". So to the Calvinist, "no flesh (life per some trannys) would have been saved"
means no Christians would have been saved from the painful death of the GREAT TRIB. had those days not been cut short.
Now, how can those days be "cut short" if they were prophesied to go on for 7 years, per Daniel 9:27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering...
This is the only way. Let the first half of the GREAT TRIB roll by as predestined and prophesied, but half way into it, after 3 and 1/2 years rapture the Roman Civilized world Church out of there in the middle of that 7 year period.
That would mean during the 2nd half of the GREAT TRIB, almost no Christians were put to death. Everyone who came up before Romes trial, not being a true Christian, would deny the faith and get to live. Which is a sin, and they failed to persevere unto the end, but it does not mean they could not have repented later on in their life and gotten their assurance of salvation back. This was no "unpardonable sin", but those who recanted of the faith, undoubtedly felt like God had let them down, and failed them, and thus it would be hard to bring them back to repentance later on. Though many did. This was one of the great controversies of the early church (once it started up again, say 70 AD).
What to do with those traitors who denied the faith, but later on wanted to re-join the church. Should we accept them and let them in the church now, and count them as full members or reject them altogether, or accept them as partial members w. probationary rights and privileges. This is not a violation of the verse "he that endures to the end shall be saved". As long as you repent at the end of your life, you are counted as "enduring to the end". If failure in the middle meant going to hell, well, how many of us have not "failed in the middle"? Anyone here completely without sin, after they got saved?
Yea, Constantine (and rumor has it, John Wayne, and George Washington) waited until they were on their death beds to get baptized (Roman Catholic). If you love the pleasures of sin, but still want to get into heaven, then dont get baptised mid life, or as an infant. Have fun all your life and then on your death bed, get baptised. After all, how much sin can you commit in the last week of your life, lying in your death bed?
Some churches and pastors have re-enforced this bad logic. Because Baptism washes away sin per the teaching of the RC church, and eastern Orthodoxy and even Missouri Synod Lutherans. Acts 22:11-16 Because the brilliance of the light had blinded me, my companions led me by the hand into Damascus. 12There a man named Ananias, a devout observer of the law who was highly regarded by all the Jews living there, 13came and stood beside me. ‘Brother Saul,’ he said, ‘receive your sight.’ And at that moment I could see him. 14Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear His voice. 15You will be His witness to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins away, calling on His name.’
Note: the effective ingredient here is "calling on His name", not Baptism. By calling on His name, Paul was placing his faith and trust in the Lord Jesus to save him. I.E. Sola Gratia, Sola Fide. No good work of Pauls could "wash away all his sins", not even Baptism. The only sin that Baptism washes away is the one found in Matt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
When you get baptised, you are making a public profession of faith, and are in effect joining the church universal, which means your name is now written in the book of Life. It can be taken off later on, if you dont persevere in the faith. But by Baptism, you have repented of and so to speak "washed away" THAT ONE SIN, the sin of not acknowledging Jesus before men per Matt 10:32. Even though we all know it takes the blood of Jesus to wash away any, every, and all of our sins.
When Ananias was leading the Apostle Paul to Christ, he knew Paul had a very guilty conscience because of all the Christians he had helped torture and kill, so Ananias added Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins away
, to the effective ingredient calling on His name
. So that Paul would know that he was forgiven for all the torture and murder he was guilty of. This was necessary to heal the conscience of Paul, to make him an effective minister.
Now, if someone had said to me in college at ISU back in 78 when I got saved, "Francis, get up, call on the name of the Lord Jesus, and be baptised to wash away your sins" I would have thought "do I have to get wet?" I dont have much sin to "wash away", is this REALLY NECESSARY? He who is forgiven little, loves little, he who is forgiven much, loves much.
Did Paul "love much"? He suffered things for the Lord NO OTHER APOSTLE would do, and by the way, NONE OF US TODAY, would do either. See 2 Corinthians 11:23-29. Had Paul sinned much? See Acts 26:9-11.
We could speculate that Pauls' conscience never quite got healed, as he later on keeps on confessing "1 Tim 1:15 sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
God, knowing this ahead of time, inspired Ananias to re-assure Paul of his being forgiven by saying to Paul "and be baptised to wash away your sins". Paul needed as many "Forgiven" crutches as God could provide.
This is why I cant be a Lutheran (along w. consubstantiation, their rejection of calvinism, and the liturgy that too closely resembles RC ligurgy, and the robes = high wall between clergy and laity, means inappropriate view of priesthood of all believers, etc.). The Small Catechism by Martin Luther IV. The Sacrament of Holy Baptism Secondly. What does Baptism give or profit?--Answer. It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, ...
Note: I say, No, it doesnt. No good work of ours can "work forgiveness of sins" this is counter to Luthers "sola gratia, sola fide" also, if baptism saved, then let us force the whole world of infants thru the sprinkler. Let us offer cheeseburgers or discounts at grocerys stores for any pagan willing to run thru our sprinkler (think the US Govt. finally offering such trinkets if you will just TAKE THE COVID19 VAXX CLOT SHOT). That trick worked on a surprising number of people.
Can we TRICK someone into Salvation? Evidentally so, if the Lutheran Catechism is true, that It (baptism) works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, ... The Lutheran pastor would object, Francis, does it not say "to all who believe this". Your cheeseburger tricked adult doesnt believe the necessary things about baptism to qualify. I would reply, then does your Lutheran infant of Godly parents, also believe the necessary things about baptism to qualify? The Pastor would reply, no but the babys faith is credited to him based on the parents faith. So, I would have to reply, then cant we credit the adult pagan w. baptismal faith based on the faith of others, like the one handing him the cheeseburger? Oh no, the pastor would say, it has to be a family member, one who is committing to raise that child in the "nurture and admonition of the Lord." OK, so I will say to all adult pagans getting the offer of the cheeseburger and baptismal sprinkling, "come around to our church weekly, on Sunday and we are offering to raise you spiritually in the nurture and admonition of the Lord", then regardless of their response, as in regardless of the babys response, we go ahead and baptize. One can quickly see that such idiotic clauses as this Lutheran Catechism clause really need to be expunged from Church documents.
That still leaves me with the problem of what to do with the verse "Baptism now saves you" 1 Peter 3:21
. I say, what it saves you from is "being outside of the visible church". Once baptized, you are now counted as a member of the church, and belonging to group of people that the church counts as saved or on schedule to get saved sometime in the future, so we are going to count them as elect, as Gods people, as Christians, even though none of us has an elect-o-meter. The church is required to establish its own boundaries (by being fruit inspectors [fruits of the spirit]). Who is in the church and who is outside the church. What group of people are the elders responsible for per Hebrews 13:17 "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account".
and what visitors to the church are they NOT responsible for? To whom does the verse apply "Be not un-equally yoked with unbelievers"
and whom is exempt?
Baptism helps clarify all these issues. See earlier discussion above about Ananias saying to Paul: Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins away, calling on His name.’
the effective ingredient here is "calling on His name", not Baptism. By calling on His name, Paul was placing his faith and trust in the Lord Jesus to save him. I.E. Sola Gratia, Sola Fide. No good work of Pauls could "wash away all his sins", not even Baptism.
The only sin that Baptism washes away is the one found in Matt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
So, when you get baptised, you are making a public profession of faith, and are in effect joining the church universal, which means your name is now written in the book of Life. Since your name can be taken off the book of life, that means the B.O.L. is not the list of all elect. Merely the list of the visible church as this slice of time in history. Theoretically you might be able to be put in, taken out, put in, taken out, several times. Depending on your current status as a BackSlidden or Repentant Christian.
But, now, back to the rapture, the Great Trib and Nero's role there-in:
Rapture 3
The numbers of those that Rome and the Talmudic Jews suspected of being Christian should have declined sharply after the Rapture, Also, since Nero left for Greece in July-August of 66 to Chariot Race in the Olympic games and sing and be an actor, We can assume he was not actively beating the drum to kill Christians during this time. He was distracted. He did not return to Rome until the late Fall of AD 67 (over a year later). When he did return, from the fun and games, he was faced with a few provinces in revolt, including Judah. Also, since he would suicide just 8 or 9 months hence, we can assume he had a hostile senate, and growing distrustful Pratorean Guard to deal with. An Assassiation attempt to prosecute
This extended presence or visitation of Nero in Greece is a good illustration of the meaning of the Greek word Parousia. It does not mean just a one-day event. It means an extended visit of weeks, months, or even a year or more, as in this case of Nero (who brought along the whole tenth legion under Vespasian his best general to protect him, while out on tour). The Greeks referred to Nero's visit as his parousia.
Keep this in mind when you read of the parousia of the Lord. It was spread out over 7 years and included His entourage (clouds of witnesses, saints, and angels). Parousia occurs in 24 places in the N.T. a few of which are listed here:
Matthew 24:3 [will be] the sign of Your coming, and of the end
Matthew 24:27 so will the coming of the Son
Matthew 24:37 For the coming of the Son of Man
Matthew 24:39 so will the coming of the Son
1 Corinthians 15:23 who are Christ's at His coming,
2 Corinthians 7:7 and not only by his coming, but also
1 Thessalonians 2:19 of our Lord Jesus at His coming?
1 Thessalonians 3:13 and Father at the coming of our Lord
1 Thessalonians 4:15 until the coming of the Lord,
2 Thessalonians 2:1 with regard to the coming of our Lord
2 Thessalonians 2:8 by the appearance of His coming;
2 Thessalonians 2:9 [that is], the one whose coming is in accord
James 5:7 until the coming of the Lord.
James 5:8 your hearts, for the coming of the Lord
2 Peter 3:4 is the promise of His coming? For [ever] since
2 Peter 3:12 for and hastening the coming of the day
1 John 2:28 away from Him in shame at His coming.
Strong's Greek 3952 N.T. Occurrences=24
Note: Even the "coming of the Lord" like lightning is included in the parousia period. Matthew 24:27 NAS: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.
But continuing with our discussion of "when was the Rapture", means first solving the question "when was the great tribulation" and what did that have to do with Nero.
After Nero had his fun and games in Rome (inspite of the all Judea-Galilee being in revolt, and Vespasian being dispatched to quell that rebellion in early 67AD) Nero returned to Rome in late 67. A revolt in Gaul against the emperor Nero, began in March 68, and it was followed by other revolts in Spain, Africa, and Egypt that set in motion a series of events that led to Nero's suicide a couple months later on June 8. After the Talmudic Jews rebelled in August of 66 we can assume the hostile attitude towards the Christians by Rome remained the same, since Rome viewed Christianity as merely a subset of Judaism, while Christian persecution by the Jews, we can assume rose sharply, since there was no longer any restrainer to hold them back from killing their mortal enemy, the followers of Jesus the Christ (to the Talmuds, a deciever and false messiah). It was only AFTER the war that Rome viewed Christianity as a separate religion from Judaism, i.e. when they saw that the Christians did not join Jews in the rebellion, and saw the Jews persecuting the Christians to death.
However, I believe there were still Christians on planet earth during this time (even though it is right after the Rapture in AD65). Firstly, there are the 144,000 Jewish martyrs of Revelation 7. These did not get raptured in 65-66 AD because they weren’t saved yet. They were elect, but acting like typical Talmudic Jews of their day. However, as the Jewish Tribulation wore on, and they saw the mis-management (gang warfare) and destruction of their country, they would remember (read about, hear about from friends) the words of Jesus in Matthew 24. The Jewish 7 year Tribulation began in August 63, in the second year of Albinus reign, and ended with the destruction of the temple in Aug 70).
Secondly, remember that the great trib was only in the Roman known world. If the apostles had preached the gospel to every creature under heaven (Col 1:23) by 63 AD (time of Pauls death) then elect could still be getting saved in other parts of the globe even while the rapture was going on in the Oikumene (Roman known world, aka "civilized world").
It is good to differentiate between the elect and those in the covenant, and those regenerated (3 different rules for 3 different sets of people). The elect are unbelievers before they get in the covenant, and before they get regenerated (Romans 11:28 "they are enemies for your sakes or towards you")
I believe people were still getting regenerated, even after the rapture, just mostly in other parts of the world. John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
The one flock and one shepherd will happen in Glory, probably never here on earth, unless at the end of the millennium.
During the great trib. some of the Christians would have done the smart thing and moved to the outer edges of the Roman Empire, say Great Britain, or East into Turkey, Ukraine, or Russia. Or north into the Scandanavian countries, or South into Africa. It is possible those Christians were suffering very little persecution, and thus didn't need to be raptured. But they still needed, and had the Holy Spirit in them, even after the rapture.
It is possible the Apostle John was left on earth during that time, (but certainly not after 70 AD, since that would have made him pope [if you believe in that office, which I don’t] and very remiss for not having written one more book of the New Testament, reporting on the destruction of the temple (a very important event in Christian and Jewish history).
So, back to our original question at the beginning of this article. When was the Rapture? Well the timing of the rapture has to do with the 2 comings of Jesus in the future of when all the new testament books were written, so they all (N.T. books) talk about the FUTURE coming of Jesus (which modern pre-mills and Dispensationalists wrongly interpret to mean future to us too, today, here in the 21st century). No, God limits the time frame to "this generation" that Jesus was addressing in 30 AD. Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Modern pre-mills and Dispensationalists do a bit of scripture twisting and interpret "this generation" to mean "the generation that sees all these events take place" which they say, has to be in our 2024 future. But, my friend, almost 2000 years of church history have passed between when the N.T. books were written prophesying the future coming of Christ down to today.
It never occurs to these Dispys that perhaps there could be a couple of events (comings of Christ) that may have happened in between now and back then that would fulfill all requirements of the mis labeled "2nd coming of Christ". It never occurs to them that they should be more accurate with their Greek, when the Bible says "end of the world" and uses the Greek word (aionon) for "world" that they should translate that to be "age". I.E. end of the old covenant age which was passing away by 70 AD per Hebrews 8:13. End of the Jewish covenant, Jewish age in 70 AD.
It never occurs to them that there is an alternate interpretation of the Greek word gamma eta sigma ("gas" pronounced "gace" which rhymes with "case") translated by the KJV and others to read "earth" in Revelation. That proper interpretation is "land". As in "land of Israel". Since the earth is still here, and it has never seen the likes of the Book of Rev. judgments poured out on "the whole earth", gosh, to the Dispys, that MUST mean the 2nd coming of Christ is in our 2024 future. Doesn't Revelation 3:10 say Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.'
Preterists translate this more accurately to mean Because thou hast kept the word of my trials, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation
(actually an hour of trial and tribulation), which shall come upon all the world
(Oikumene is always Roman known world in the first century, not the whole Kosmos, whole globe), to try them that dwell upon the earth
Land, as in land of Israel. Note: the seals, bowls and trumpets in the Book of Revelation were not unleashed upon the whole globe, whole planet. They were judgments against the "land" of Israel.
Although it could be argued that at times it is appropriate to think of gamma eta sigma as "earth" not "land" since the "whole earth" that they knew about back then included only Europe, and north Africa, under Roman rule. And the whole Roman world was shaken up by the wicked life and death of Nero, end of the Julio-claudian line of emperors, Roman civil wars, with four emperors competing to rule Rome in 69 AD. And it should be noted that the Christians in the whole earth that they knew about did get persecuted to death under Nero, and also the Talmudic Jews in every country after 65-66 AD, were getting slayed by their neighbors, since the Talmudic Jews in Judea were revolting against Rome and it was just assumed that Jews everywhere would side with Jerusalem over Rome, so better to kill them before they killed you, in whatever city you were in, (see 80k in Alexandria Egypt alone) below.
Then too the Dispys will say "Doesn't 2 peter 3:10 say For the day of the Lord, will come like a thief, in which the Heavens will pass away with a roar, the elements will melt with fervent heat, and the earth and its’ works will be burnt up.
This has just gotta be in our future, since the heavens have not yet ever passed away with a roar, the elements (carbon, oxygen, gold, silver, tin, lead, zinc, etc) have not yet melted with fervent heat (nuclear war) and certainly "the earth" and its works are not yet all burned up.
Well back when this prophecy was made by Jesus (say 30 AD) it was LONG before The periodic table of the elements was invented by Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev in 1869. Dispys being baby Christians, seem to have no concept of the changes of meaning of words, nor of time context. "There shall earthquakes in divers places"
Does that mean only where men are diving under water should we look for earth quakes? No, the dispys are not that stupid. Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Does that mean the 2nd coming of Christ had to wait till publishing was invented, and what about "all nations" how literal should we take that? Better get those gospel tracts out to all 195 countries in existence today, dont miss a one, or the Lord cant come back yet.
The Dispys have not done their proper Biblical scholarship. They seem to know not that "the heavens" frequently in Scripture means your political high places and rulers (as in Nero, and the Sanhedrin), that "the elements" means "elemental things" as in beginning or baby law, "remember Sherlock Holmes always saying "its elementary my dear Watson".
Trace that Greek word for "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10 and you will find the same word in Galatians 4:1Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers (tutors) until the date set by the father. 3So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. … 6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” … 9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
So, "the elements" here in 2 peter 3:10 and in Gal 4:1 should be translated "elemental things", i.e. baby law, do animal sacrifices, touch not, or be unclean, work on these days, rest on this day called Sabbath, never gather wood on the Sabbath, and all 613 laws the Talmudic Jews had to keep, (i.e. ceremonial law) will melt with fervent heat
(think of the requirement to make pilgrimage to Jerusalem 3 times a year, and sacrifice in the Temple, well when the temple was burned down by the Romans in 70 AD, that elemental thing, that baby law, melted with fervent heat), and the earth
(gamma eta should be translated "land" i.e. the land of Judea) and its works will be burnt up
(Vespasian and Titus sweeping across all Judea, burning city after city that would not surrender to the Romans including their capitol city Jerusalem.
Works here may also mean "good works" of the pharisee class, like Saul trying to earn his way into the Sanhedrin by persecuting "the way" (Christianity) to death, i.e. all good works done under the ceremonial law). All would be burned up, (Greek literal just says "will not be found" instead of burned up) terminated when the Jewish covenant ended in 70AD.
Jesus even warns the Talmudic Jews (and Christians) of His day to NOT look for a physical 2nd coming of the Messiah. Dont look for a man, in his body, walking around on planet earth again. All you futurists (Dispys) need to apply that to today too, since you continue to ignore the time context verses regarding the parousia. Doubtless you will quote to me Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
.
That refers to the rapture which happened in 65-66 AD. These disciples would see Jesus in His glorified body, coming on the clouds, to receive His saints. Does that mean EVERYBODY got to see that little man high up in the sky? Even the Apostate Talmudic Jews, even the Romans? No, God is fully capable of just appearing to His saints. 2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. 17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Numbers 22:31Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. 32And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me: 33And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive
Now there is no need to multiply examples, but for those of you who are curious about what angels and Theophanies look like, and what the spiritual realities are that are hidden from we men, but in reality surround us daily, consider also: Daniel 10; John 12:28-30; John 38-40; Acts 22:9.
Dont go looking for Jesus to bodily rule the nations from Jerusalem with a rod of iron (in partnership with the false "Jews"). The Dispys get this belief from Psalm 110. But in Psalm 110, the time period the Psalmist is referring to is in the millennium, Zion is the church in this age. Remember, we are replacement theologians. When the Bible says Psalm 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Zion here is the church. The time period here is all through the millennium, some 100k+ years beginning with when the Millennium started Matthew 12:28. All thru the overlap period (30 to 70AD) when the Old Covenant, Old Testament was winding down and there still were valid Talmudic Jews walking around on planet earth. But the millennium extends on for the next 100k years or even longer. see Are we in the end times or in the millennium now? and Is Jesus coming back soon.
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers
(of the temple, some trannys say "inner rooms"); believe it not.
No, what the Dispys mis-label "the 2nd coming" is in actuality the conquering king coming in wrath and judgment against Israel and all the Talmudic Jews in 70AD.
Why do you think Jesus uses the term "son of man" in Matt 24:27, 30, 37, 39, 44, 25:13 etc. Why not say "son of God" or "messiah" or "lamb of God" or just "Lord"? What is the significance of the term "son of man"? Arent we all "sons of men". Computer search the whole bible for the term "son of man" and see when it was first used as a term for the messiah. That will tend to define it. We learn of His power and authority in Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
We learn of His mission in Ezekiel where the term "son of man" occurs more often than in any other book. What is the "son of man" doing in Ezekiel. Constantly warning and prophesying against Israel about the coming invasion by Babylon, and judgment of God against Israel. For an example of this, see Ezekiel 6:1 below. That's why Jesus in Matthew 24 uses this title in key places.
Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
(the sign was the face of Jesus in the clouds, and the cross-sword that hung over Jerusalem for a year)
and then shall all the tribes of the earth
(greek word gamma eta sigma should be translated "land" here, i.e. Jewish 12 tribes) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(see the effects of, not literally see the body of Jesus. We even speak this way today. How many times have you had someone say to you, after a long verbal explanation (not visual) they will say "OK, now do you see what I mean". It means to comprehend, not to literally see reflected light rays with your eyes.
Eusebius says "The early, post-apostolic church reads the events of AD 70 as a divine vindication of Christ and Christianity. For instance, referring to the historical account of Jerusalem’s destruction by eyewitness Jewish historian Josephus, Eusebius comments: “The same writer [Josephus] shows that besides this, innumerable other revolts were started in Jerusalem itself, affirming that from that time risings and war and the mutual contrivance of evil never ceased in the city and throughout Judea, until the time when the siege under Vespasian came upon them as the last scene of all. Thus the penalty of God pursued the Talmudic Jews for their crimes against Christ” (Eccl. Hist. 2:6:8). In fact, Eusebius’s massive THE PROOF OF THE GOSPEL repeatedly and forcefully drives home God’s judgment on Israel as the sign of God’s favor to Christianity ...”
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
These verses are not to be taken in chronological order, nor is the rest of Matthew 24. The only sequential thing we can deduce is in Matt 24:29 "immediately after the tribulation of those days". All else is summary, and highlighting main points in thematic order.
Furthermore the coming of the Son of Man happened in stages, events spread out from 65 AD to 70AD, and there are 2 "comings" of Christ, the rapture in say October of 65 AD, (Ed Stevens puts it at June 66AD) and the 70AD coming in wrath. Then too, there are 3 tribulations, the Jewish trib, the Chirstian trib that got cut short by the rapture, and the general tribulation of just living in this world. John 16:33 "with the world, you shall have tribulation"
we Christians go about in this life, sowing in tears, but we shall reap in Joy (up in heaven, after we die). We are even called to die to self John 12:24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.
I will try to summarize how these verses Matt 24:27-31 should be interpreted here, then go into more detail of some of them later on in this file. We must look at Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and the book of Revelation, Josephus, Tacitus, and Yosipon to get our answers.
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(This could be both the Rapture in 65 AD which happened with lightning speed and did vacuum up saints from one end of the sky to the other, and it could refer to the coming in wrath of 70 AD, which was slow in coming but was "seen by all" even as lightning is seen by all. From one end of the Roman Empire to the other, all knew of, Judaism's rebellion against Rome. Many provinces probably were cheering them on, and wishing they also could obtain their freedom, but had a wait and see policy towards Jerusalem Revelation 18:9,10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment');
Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles (some trannys say vultures) be gathered together.
(Judaism is the carcase, Rome's legions are the eagles, scope = all over the Roman known world, but especially in Judea were the eagles gathered, time frame is 66-70 AD)
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(Jewish Tribulation: 7 year Tribulation began in August 63, during the second year of Albinus reign, and ended with the destruction of the temple in Aug 70). Sun darkened, moon no light, powers of the heavens shaken are all political guiding lights [luminaries, if you will] like the high priest, Sanhedrin etc failing to give their guidance and wisdom.
The stars falling from heaven is explained in Josephs dream Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? 11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
So we see that stars falling from heaven are just tribal leaders, being terminated or just failing to give their light. But we know from history that the tribes are gone after 70 AD. There is no legal way for a man to prove what tribe he is of, after the temple records were destroyed. Any claim of lineage after the temple came down in 70 AD would be based on hearsay and un-documented claims in a court of law.
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
Note: the vengeance of the Son of God in 70 AD on the Talmudic Jews was a sign to all mankind that the son of man was reigning in Heaven, and governing events here on earth, per the early church fathers.)
Matt 24:30
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Note: Greek word "gamma eta" should not be translated "earth" here but "land". All the tribes of the "land" of Israel went into mourning after their temple was burned down in 70 AD. Even though legally and officially now the tribes were gone, those people still existed and knew what tribe they were of, so Matthew could still say "all the tribes of the land would mourn" as grievously as when parents in the agricultural society back then lose their only son, their only bread winner, their only hope of retirement.
But dont think from this saying that the Talmudic Jews ever recognized Jesus as their only son. They saw the effects of the Son of Man coming on the clouds (of saints) with power and great glory. I.E. the destruction of their city, temple, priesthood, and "chosen people of God" status. All the Oikumene (Roman Civilized World) heard about the wrath of God poured out on the Talmudic Jews in 70 AD, Titus triumphal entry into Rome, w. prisoners, and the Arch de Titus was built to commemorate that victory in 81AD. Just google the Arch of Titus to see pictures of it today in Modern Italy.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Note: this is the rapture in 65-66AD.
Now for more detail:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
the tribulation of those days in this verse refers to the Jewish Tribulation. The Jewish 7 year Tribulation began in August 63, during the second year of Albinus reign, and ended with the destruction of the temple in Aug 70). When the temple came down, Judaism ended. When their covenant ended, so did the covenant people. So immediately after that, the political rulers of the Talmudic Jews, i.e. high priest, Sanhedrin, etc. are the sun, moon and stars (luminaries) who gave religious and political guidance, leadership, knowledge and wisdom, these all would be done away.
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign
(see ppg A. below, there were several signs, not just one) of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth
("gamma eta" here should be translated "land" not "earth", i.e. land of Israel) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
(Roman armies coming in wrath and judgment on the Talmudic Jews, 67-70 AD). Jesus coming in vengeance and wrath on the Talmudic Jews via Gods "army" i.e. the Romans. Was the biggest sign, seen by the whole known world, and thruout the ages of time. God has used pagan armies before as "His army" see Isaiah 10:5,6 "O Assyria the rod of mine anger"and Mt 22:7 "sent His troops" which in this verse in history are the Romans.
ppg A. The biggest sign of the son of man ruling in Heaven was Gods wrath and vengeance against the Talmudic Jews in the 70 AD conflagration. Gods army (the Romans) killed or enslaved, the entire population of Jerusalem, and scrubbed the Talmudic Jews capitol city, from the face of the earth. Their temple was burned down, their city walls foundations were first dug up, then plowed under.
Consider:
Last Days Madness by Gary Demar, page 69 "For when the Romans had taken Jerusalem, Titus ordered his soldiers to dig up the foundations both of all the city and the temple. As we read in the Jewish Talmud and in Maimonides, Terentius Rufus, who was left to command the army at Jerusalern, did with a ploughshare tear up the foundation of the temple; and thereby signally fulfilled those words of Micah 3:12 Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.
Eusebius too affirms, that it was ploughed up by the Romans, and he saw it "lying in ruins."
But as for the lesser signs fulfilling Matt 24:30 consider:
Sepher Yosippon (A Medieval History of Ancient Israel) Translated from the Hebrew by Steven B. Bowman. Excerpts from Chapter 87 "Burning of the Temple"
For one year before Vespasian came, a single great star shining like (an) unsheathed sword was seen over the Temple.
(Note, that would look like a cross, i.e. the one Jesus was crucified on, but longer) And in those days when the sign was seen it was the holiday of Passover and during that entire night the Temple was lit up and illuminated like the light of day, and thus it was all seven days of the Passover. All the sages of Jerusalem knew that it was a malevolent sign, but the rest of the ignorant people said that it was a benevolent sign. ...
Now it happened after this that there was seen from above over the Holy of Holies for the whole night the outline of a man's face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was quite awesome. Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire. When the high holy day of Shavuot (feast of first fruits, one of the biblically-ordained Three Pilgrimage Festivals) came in those days, during the night the priests heard within the Temple something like the sound of men going and the sound of men marching in a multitude going into the Temple, and a terrible and mighty voice was heard speaking: "Let's go and leave this House".
Josephus describes these "signs" as following:
Wars.6.5.3. (page 582) Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.
Thus also before the Talmudic Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Nisan 21 [March-April] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.
At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, (had to be Eleazar the future Abomination of Desolation) and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar (uneducated) to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Jyar, [April, May] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."
"But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!"
This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"
And when Albinus [for he was then our procurator] asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow,
"Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; (note: Who was the last guy to pronounce curses against Jerusalem and make no defense for Himself at his public trial. Of the same name, by the way.) and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.
28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles (some trannys say “vultures”) be gathered together.
(Jerusalem is the carcass, the Roman ensigns are the eagles-vultures who DID pick the Jewish carcass clean in 70 AD. So all that gold in "gods house" got put back into circulation (where it did the most good). It was Gods payment for (got put in the pockets of) the Roman soldiers sacking Jerusalem Gods Rules for the King, Thou Shalt Not multiply Gold And their generals Vespasian and Titus were rewarded by God with the rulership of the empire. Rome did Gods will. Rome avenged the death of Jesus upon that same "evil and adulterous generation (that) seeks after a sign", Rome brought down the idol and stumbling block of the Talmudic Jews, the temple, now that the REAL and ONLY acceptable sacrifice for sins had come, and had been rejected by the Talmudic Jews. Rome eliminated the Levitical priesthood who would not give way to the Melchizadekal priesthood of Jesus, and instead killed the Christians. Rome terminated the ceremonial law (you could no longer go up to Jerusalem 3 times per year as commanded by Moses).
And what of the Holy Relics in the Temple? WARS Book 6, Chap 8, ppg. 3. But now at this time it was that one of the priests, the son of Thebuthus, whose name was Jesus, upon his having security given him by the oath of Caesar that he should be preserved upon condition that he should deliver to him certain of the precious things that had been reposited in the temple, came out of it, and delivered him from the wall of the holy house two candlesticks like to those that lay in the holy house, with tables, and cisterns, and vials, all made of solid gold, and very heavy. He also delivered to him the veils and the garments, with the precious stones, (possible Urim and Thumin) and a great number of other precious vessels that belonged to their sacred worship. The treasurer of the temple also, whose name was Phineas, was seized on, and shewed Titus the coats and girdles of the priests, with a great quantity of purple and scarlet, which were there reposited for the use of the veil, as also a great deal of cinnamon and cassia, with a large quantity of other sweet spices, which used to be mixed together, and offered as incense to God every day. A great many other treasures were also delivered to him, with sacred ornaments of the temple not a few; which things thus delivered to Titus, obtained of him for this man the same pardon that he had allowed to such as deserted of their own accord.
Who got the holy books (the most priceless treasures) from the Temple? Titus Caesar,’ says Josephus, ‘when the city of Jerusalem was taken by force, persuaded me frequently to take whatever I pleased out of the ruins of my country; for he told me that he gave me leave so to do. But there being nothing that I much valued, now my country was destroyed, I only asked of Titus liberty for myself and my family, as the only comfort now remaining in my calamities; I also had the holy books by his concession.’ THE LIFE OF FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS ppg 75
In Matthew 24:14 Jesus said "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world ... and then the end shall come."
This was fulfilled per: Romans 1:8; Romans 10:18, Romans 16:26, Col 1:6, 23 some of these passages use the same greek word for "the end" as Mt 24:14 does.
By the way, after God and His angels and saints pull out of the Temple, it is marked as an idol for destruction. So, all you Christian Zionists out there today, dont go and try to rebuild any physical Ezekiel temple. God wont occupy it, and that building has no significance. Dont slaughter a bunch of animals there and sprinkle any blood, that covenant has ended. Ezekiels temple should be interpreted in light of 1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Of course these Dispys seeking to build Ezekiels temple, will say, "oh but this temple is for the Jews, not the Christians. They need this temple to fulfill their covenant with God". Here is where they need a good dose of Replacement Theology. And they need to learn the parable of the fig tree of which Jesus said in Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. These Dispys know not that, that covenant has been obsoleted, Hebrews 8:13. Vanished Away.
So everyone parading around wearing the tiny hat (yarmulke), or with long dangling sidburns, claiming to be a Jew, is in reality a FALSE Jew. And an enemy of the Cross of Christ. And eventually a persecutor of Christians, and thus a nation destroyer who WILL eat up "my people" as they eat bread as they suck out all the wealth thru their usuary. A Christian Commonwealth will seek to expose their evil deeds and deport them from the country.
All other unbelievers are relatively harmless, (hedonists, athiests, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, BaHai, etc.) but the Talmudic Jews being the synagogue of Satan, will act like organized crime, assassinating, blackmailing, bribing, seducing their way into the legislators lives of any country which hosts them, to get favorable "anti-semite" laws passed in their favor. To get "central bank, we Talmudic Jews will print all your money for you" privileges. To squeeze out all competing media and movie companies until they completely control what news and entertainment the host countries people get to see.
If charges are filed against them, they make sure that you are represented by a Jewish lawyer, and the opposing lawyer will chances are, be Jewish. So will be the Judge. The porn industry will flourish in that host country, whose outlets will all be owned by Talmudic Jews. There will be an ACLU to sue Christians and wear them down via Lawfare. The education system will serve up textbooks written by Talmudic Jews,portraying an anti-Christian way of life, and false history, which demeans the white man, and portrays Christians in history as materialistic, hypocrites, enslaving all other races. Open the door just a crack with Dispensationalism proclaiming that the Talmudic Jews are still Gods Chosen People, and your nation will soon go the way of the formerly Christian USA.
God is going to make an example out of us. Much wrath is coming to America. The Christians sat by and did NOTHING as the Talmudic Jews took over their country, aborted their kids, killed their sons in pointless foreign wars, except the point was to install a USA favorable dictator in that foreign country, who would continue to let his own country get raped by our multi-national corporations. The Christians sat by and did NOTHING as the Talmudic Jews: murdered millions over seas WW1, WW2, Korean War, Vietnam War, Israels Neighbors Wars (Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon, soon to be Iran, etc.) Did nothing as our traitorous congress sent $Billions to the most corrupt country on earth at this time Ukraine to continue provoking Christian Russia into WW3 with us. Putin, who could easily wipe us out, has so far been incredibly RESTRAINED.
By the way, have you ever wondered why God let Islam conquer most of europe, in the middle ages and even overthrow Constantinople? I suspect that it is because these formerly Christian cities and countries got taken over by the Talmudic Jews, and the Christians were so weak and impotent, they would not drive out the Talmudic Jews, so rather than continue sending all these nominally Christians to hell, decade after decade, God swept their countries and cities clean, so they could start over with Christianity decades later, after the Mohedmedians cleaned out the Jew infestation.
Remember the spiritual battle that the world is EVER engaged in. Genesis 4:7 (God to Cain, before he slew Abel) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Now you and I know that "sin" has no desire, for it is but an action. But Satan does. Suppose the translators of the KJV had used "Satan" here instead of "sin".
Now suppose I told you that every century has its servents of the "synagogue of Satan". Sometimes it will be the Catholic Church (1300-1700's), or the Jacobins (French Revolution), or the Jesuits (who caused the fall of Napoleon, on to today), the Masons (1700's thru today), the communists (1800's thru today), but always the Talmudic Jews are behind them all, financing them, training them, guiding them politically. "and thou shalt rule over him"
means GET TO WORK. Recognize your enemy and fight against him and conquer him. God expects you to rule over him. What are your 3 Biblical enemies, the world, the flesh, and the devil. This is the 3rd enemy who knows right well how to use the first two against you. But God expects you to rule over him.
Do the churches in America preach this? Do they preach the gospel of the Kingdom? Just the opposite. They preach dispensationalism, dont bother to get political because you are just polishing brass on a sinking ship, all the evil our country is suffering has been prophesied to come, because we are in the end times now, and the beast and anti-christ are out there and Jesus will rapture us out of here soon, and then come back to rule the world from Jerusalem WITH THE Talmudic Jews for a literal 1000 years. Modern churches in the USA preach unconditional love, God is the great sugar daddy in the sky forgiving EVERYTHING and EVERYONE instantly. Church music puts you in a meditative trance repeating the same lyrics OVER and OVER again.
Or worse they are a CUFI church (Christians United For Israel), or a liberal church preaching white racism, reparation payments for the Black man, Global warming, get vaxx'd to ward off the pandemic, submission to the Govt which always has your best interests in mind, gun control, sex change afirmations, American exceptionalism, etc.' As Adolf Hitler said. "Dont worry about America, The Talmudic Jews and the blacks will take care of America". By Blacks Hitler meant the decieved blacks who hate whitey. Not all blacks are like this, but most are, thanks to the efficiency of Jewish media, and education.
America is a good example for the world to see. Dont go down this road. Running with the Devil is fun and prosperous for a while, but in the end, you will pay, with the loss of your country. America has taken Satan up on his offer Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Continuing on with the detailed exposition of Matt 24:
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I have heard some reformed scholars (James B Jordan, who is usually a FAR better scholar than I) claim that this “gathering together of His elect” is just the organizing of Christians into local churches after 70 AD. But Christians were ALREADY organized into local churches prior to 70 AD. Remember the 7 churches that John wrote to when he penned the book of Revelation (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamon, Thyatira, Philadelphia, Laodicia) and to whom did Paul write all those epistles to (Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, Romans, etc.) True, many of the local churches were probably hiding in catacombs holding worship services in caves during the Great Roman Neronic Empire wide persecution, but there were so many organized churches back then that the Apostle Paul could say 2 Cor 11:28 28 Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches”
and regarding head coverings Paul says “ 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.”
Does it sound like the Christians have not yet been "synagogued" (organized) into churches yet by 70 AD? No, my friend, When Mt 24:31 says “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
this is the rapture, back in 65-66 AD
I challenge you. See if the Baptist, Episcopalian, Presby, Roman Catholic, Methodist, or Pentacostal explanations for these verses, are as plausible as the 65-66AD one.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(more time sensitive proof that the rapture and soon coming day of the Lord spoken of all over the NT was talking about 70 AD. That generation (40 years from Christ) would see all these things.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
God uses the terms "heaven" and "earth" differently than we here in the 21st century do. God speaks of the spiritual reality for that day, i.e. the firmament or boundary between man and God. I.E. the covenant, how we relate (get near to) Him. The old heavens and old earth (way of relating to God [temple, sacrificial system, priestly nation supposed to be serving the whole world, and supposed to be the good examples to the rest of the world, i.e. the Jews], old spiritual authorities [high priest, Sanhedrin]) these all DID pass away in 70 AD fulfilling 2 Peter 3:10
Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(Speaking of the Rapture again).
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding oat the mill; one will be taken and one left.
42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
(an idiotic warning "stay awake" if the rapture and coming of the Lord, arent to happen for 2000 years or so)
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
(an UN-necessary and idiotic warning, if it is 2000 years off in the future)
Mt 24:36 But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
cannot be talking about the coming war (66AD), nor the coming of Jesus in wrath and judgment against Jerusalem and the Jewish nation and covenant, because this second type of coming by Jesus in 70 AD was a slow build up that everyone could see. Jesus wrath against the Talmudic Jews was being felt ever since August of 63, when Albinus took office as Roman Procurator over Judea, in July of 62 AD and reigned till 64 AD.
I am going to assume for his first year he wasn't bad. Since his first action when "Many of the Judean citizens complained to Albinus about what Ananus II had done: illegally convening a special session of the Sanhedrin to condemn James and others and put them to death or exile them without the approval and oversight of the Roman governor. Albinus and Agrippa II agreed that this illegal action could not be tolerated and immediately removed Ananus II from the High Priesthood. Albinus rounded up the Sicarii and imprisoned them. It would take Albinus a while (a year) to learn who was corruptable, among the Talmudic Jews and how best to make money off them. But this was the start of the Jewish 7 year Tribulation (August 63, which ended with the destruction of the temple in Aug 70).
Josephus, WARS-B2-C14 page 483 (bottom) "FESTUS SUCCEEDS FELIX, WHO IS SUCCEEDED BY ALBINUS, AS HE IS BY FLORUS; WHO, BY THE BARBARITY OF HIS GOVERNMENT, FORCES THE JEWS INTO THE WAR 1. Now it was that Festus succeeded Felix as procurator, and made it his business to correct those that made disturbances in the country. So he caught the greatest part of the robbers, and destroyed a great many of them.
But then Albinus, who succeeded Festus, did not execute his office as the other had done; nor was there any sort of wickedness that could be named but he had a hand in it. Accordingly, he did not only, in his political capacity, steal and plunder every one’s substance, nor did he only burden the whole nation with taxes, but he permitted the relations of such as were in prison for robbery, and had been laid there, either by the senate of every city, or by the former procurators, to redeem them for money; and nobody remained in the prisons as a malefactor but he who gave him nothing.
At this time it was that the enterprises of the seditious at Jerusalem were very formidable; the principal men among them purchasing leave of Albinus to go on with their seditious practices ; while that part of the people who delighted in disturbances joined themselves to such as had fellowship with Albinus: and every one of these wicked wretches were encompassed with his band of robbers, while he himself, like an arch-robber, or a tyrant, made a figure among his company, and abused his authority over those about him, in order to plunder those that lived quietly.
The effect of which was this, that those who lost their goods were forced to hold their peace, when they had reason that, if the peace continued, he. should have the Talmudic Jews for his accusers before Caesar; but that if he could procure them to make a revolt, he should divert their laying lesser crimes to his charge, by a misery that was so much greater ; he therefore did every day augment their calamities, in order to induce them to a rebellion."
By mid 66 AD gangs ruled Jerusalem and persecuted the populace. So, No, Mt 24:36 But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
HAS to be talking about the rapture. As does every other verse after this (up to Mt 25:14 parable of the talents). In between this you see "the day nor the hour" and the parable of the 10 virgins, all talking about the Rapture. Remember there are 2 types of "comings of Jesus" and 3 types of tribulation recorded in Mt 24 and Revelation. Comings: the instantaneous Rapture, the slow 7 year coming in wrath and judgment against the Talmudic Jews of 63-70AD.
Tribulations: 1) Christians pre rapture; [63 to 69]
2) Christians "yoke" which we bear by just being in this world; [on-going to the present] 3) The Jewish Tribulation, affecting only the Talmudic Jews.
As for Geography, Revelation is primarily referring to "the land" when it says "earth", i.e. the land of Judea but especially in Jerusalem.
When Jesus said Mt 25:15-18 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place
(note: By this time the temple was far from "holy" and Jesus knew it, God and his great cloud of witnesses had left the temple earlier at passover of 66AD when the great multitude of voices was heard to say "let us remove from this place", but Jesus chooses to quote Daniel accurately and say "holy place". Back in Daniels day, Angel Gabriel speaking to Daniel had to communicate in words that Daniel would understand, and Daniel could not conceive of a future temple after God restored His people to the land, as being anything but "holy".
... then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out, that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
You were to flee immediately, While all the rest of Jerusalem was celebrating the victory over Cestius, and getting more confident of their impending victory over the Romans, and thus their successful bid for independence. At this time, the gates would not have been guarded very well, as they previously had been. You could, during this small window of time, escape the city with your life.
If you went back to get your things, however, you would be tempted to take your extra clothes, gold and silver coin, memorabilia, food stores, pots N pans to cook in for your family, soon you would have a donkey train that would raise suspicion that you thought the Talmudic Jews would lose the war, that you were skipping town, that you were even defecting over to the Romans with your assets and allegiance and inside knowledge of this city, etc., thus becoming an enemy of we Talmudic Jews, and the Talmudic Jews would accuse you of being a Roman Sympathizer. So, the Talmudic Jews, would steal all your stuff in your donkey train, take over your property, house N land (unless you had sold it, which would be a worse mistake, then they would know for certain you were skipping town), and they would kill you, as a Roman sympathizer.
So Jesus is warning them, do the safe thing. When you see the abomination of desolation standing where he should not be (Eleazar as General [no longer just captain of the Temple guard, a small force of men] and his new standing army (thousands in the courtyards), holed up in the Temple, with Cestius riches and weapons) and all the Talmudic Jews in Jerusalem, partying and celebrating their victory over Cestius ... Just flee immediately with just the clothes on your back, dont even come down from the house top, nor turn back from the field. Count yourself lucky to have escaped with your lives, dont try to escape with your lives AND your possessions too, that will get you killed.
Now the wise Christian living in Jerusalem would heed Jesus warning early, like in 30 AD when Jesus spoke these words, and sell out (property) right then, and get out from under Jewish control immediately, and many did:
Acts 4:34 There were no needy ones among them, because those who owned lands or houses would sell their property, bring the proceeds from the sales, 35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet for distribution to anyone as he had need.
Acts 2: 40 With many other words he (Peter) testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day. 42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 A sense of awe came over everyone, and the apostles performed many wonders and signs. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 Selling their possessions and goods, they shared with anyone who was in need. 46 With one accord they continued to meet daily in the temple courts and to break bread from house to house, sharing their meals with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Now we can assume 30 years before the Jewish revolt in 66 AD, that urban real estate in Jerusalem was selling for a pretty penny, at full value. But the closer you got to 66 AD when the Jewish revolt against Rome started the more there had to be a real estate crash in prices, as the rats forsook the sinking ship. Most of these rats would be of the Sadducee class, who didn't believe in an afterlife, and enjoyed a profitable relationship with Rome, and were of the upper crust of society. These were the practical Jews (not the religious ones), good at making money, good at obtaining positions of power and keeping them. They forsaw the hopelessness of a war against Roman Legions, and having no faith in Yahweh (to save their city, or work any other type of supernatural miracle), they would have sold out and left town, perhaps even left Judea.
The Pharisees (the fundamentalists who lived by faith in their idols, i.e. the temple, the Levitical Priesthood, and their Davidic City Jerusalem) got overtaken by the Zealots, and were blinded by Gods "strong delusion" and stayed in "Gods capitol city" where the newly completed in 64AD gleaming temple was.
Ed Stevens says in OUTBEAK OF THE REBELLION, THE REAL HISTORY.PDF on page 1 and 2:
• [AD 62] First Exodus of Christians from Judea in AD 62 – Eutychius of Alexandria (10th century) claims that one “group of disciples,” who were connected with James (the brother of Jesus), fled from Jerusalem after James’ execution in AD 62, and went to the regions of Perea and the Decapolis (the area near Pella):
Qistus [Festus], governor of Jerusalem, died [AD 62] and the city was without any
authority or sovereign to govern it. The Talmudic Jews (under the high priest Ananus II) then arose and rioted and killed James, son of Joseph, known as the “brother of the Lord”, stoning him to death. Then they harassed a group of disciples and expelled them from the city. The Christians abandoned Jerusalem, crossed the Jordan and settled in those places [i.e., in the region of Perea and Decapolis].
[Eutychius of Alexandria (10th century), The Annals of Eutychius of Alexandria, ch. 9 sect.7.]
We do not know from whom Eutychius received this information. It could have been from Hegesippus or Papias, or some other early source.
• [AD 64-66] Gessius Florus, a close friend of Nero, was evidently sent to Judea in the Fall of 64 “as an executioner to punish condemned malefactors” (including Christians?) [Wars 2:277 (2.14.2)]. Since he started his governorship in Judea soon after the Neronic persecution began in August 64, it seems likely that one item on his agenda was killing Christians in Judea.
Another of his missions appears to have been robbing all of the gold from the temple at Jerusalem. Nero sent governors to other provinces to rob their pagan temples of their gold, too. Nero needed to gather the gold he needed to build his golden palace in Rome. And Florus knew he would not be able to get that gold without provoking the Talmudic Jews to revolt [Wars 2:282-283 (2.14.3)]. So, he allowed and encouraged the “robbers” (bandits) to plunder and spoil the whole Judean countryside in exchange for his share of their booty, hoping that this would stimulate an uprising which would give him an excuse to plunder the gold out of the temple (AD 64-66). This continued throughout his year-and-a-half tenure as governor [Wars 2.277-279 (2.14.2)].
Consider what would have been different if there was no gold stored in the temple? What if the Sanhedrin wisely left the gold in the hands of the people, instead of concentrating it all in one place, under their direct control. Yes, that means gold and silver coin as the peoples common currency in use. No fiat money. Large caches of gold, are large targets for clever thieves or even generals w. armies. They become sources of misfortune for their owners. They have to be guarded zealously. On the other hand, if you cultivate a Godly and loyal citizenry, and mint gold coins and distribute them somewhat evenly amongst the population, now you have a source of decentralized power, very difficult to be stolen from and difficult to be warred against.
What will the citizenry do with that gold? Invest it in small businesses, or buy consumer goods, or real estate, all of which contribute to the further prosperity of your nation. What does gold piled up in one spot do? Nothing, but create a target for you. Same is true of power, and of guns. If there was no gold in the temple, Nero would never have gone after it, and Judea would have never been invaded by Rome. Or if they were invaded, because they rebelled against Roman rule, they would have been in a much more stable position to resist Rome, if the wealth of the country were in the common mans hands. Each local city would have had splendid arms and resources to resist Rome. Remember there were in excess of 3 million people in all of Judea in 70 AD, and Vespasian/Titus conquered it with under 90k men. Admittedly battle hardened, well trained, well equipped legions (4 or 5) and 65,000 auxiliaries, but the odds are still lets say 3 million to 100,000 but those are still 30 to 1 odds, with walled cities everywhere in Judea, and Roman armies getting attacked on all sides, whenever they beseiged a city, because neighboring cities would send attacking armies to help out the besieged city. This is probably why Cestius suddenly and mysteriously retreated and gave up on his siege of Jerusalem, when the Jews first revolted in 66. He had not conquered all the other cities in Judea nor the countryside around him, so he could easily be attacked on all sides, eventually, and if surrounded, now he would become the besieged without a supply of food and water. He had hoped that a massive show of strength would scare the Jews back into submission to the Roman empire, but the zealots in Jerusalem called his bluff, so now his options were start a long siege of the city, for which he was not strategically prepared, or retreat, and come back with more legions and a protected (conquered) backside. He chose the latter.
This stockpiling of Gold and using fiat money instead is a lesson the American Govt, or any government for that matter should heed. Trust your people, leave the gold and the guns in the hands of the common man, and you will have their loyalty to fight for your govt. in time of need. Stockpile up the gold and guns and keep them from the people, and you will have the peoples mis-trust and dis-loyalty, when you need them to fight for your govt. in time of need. And you will have a much weaker defense. Why didn't Japan invade CONUS (coninental USA) after Pearl Harbor? Because like Admiral Yamamoto said "There will be a gun behind every blade of grass".
But continuing on with Josephus historiography (context Nero sent Florus to provoke a war w. the Jews, to get the gold in their temple).
As a result, “the unhappy Jews, when they were not able to bear the devastations which the robbers made among them, were all under a necessity of leaving their own habitations, and of flying away, as hoping to dwell more easily anywhere else in the world among foreigners (than in their own country)” [Antiq 20.252-257 (2.11.1)].
Still quoting from Ed Stevens: • [Aug 64 – May 66] The Neronic persecution (the Great Tribulation) was occurring throughout the Roman empire at the same time these distresses were happening in Judea. This was before the Abomination of Desolation, the outbreak of the Zealot rebellion, and the manifestation of the Man of Lawlessness. The Neronic persecution was “cut short” by the outbreak of the rebellion (May 12, 66), when both Talmudic Jews and Romans had to turn their attention to fighting the war.
Note: It is this last sentence of Eds that I disagree with where he says "The Neronic persecution was “cut short” by the outbreak of the rebellion (May 12, 66), when both Jews and Romans had to turn their attention to fighting the war." If you know anything about the false Jews, and their Talmud and their hatred of Christ and Christianity, you will know that nothing will deter them from murdering Christians WHENEVER and WHEREVER they can get away with it. Cut them loose from their Roman restraint, and Ed says they stop killing Christians (to prepare for war). I say NO, they will increase their lawlessness, and start killing anyone who is even suspected of being Christian. Look what they did during the short absence of any Roman Procurator oversight between when Festus died and Albinus made it out from Rome, in 62 AD, they killed James the brother of Jesus and drove the church out of Jerusalem.
Continuing with the explanation of tribulations, Jewish:
Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Note: Jesus is clearly addressing True Jews here (i.e. Christians), but raised in the Talmudic tradition. Since gentile Christians around the Roman Empire getting slain by Nero's persecution, would not care about "flight on a sabbath day". Sunday was already their holy day of worship, and all the ceremonial (Saturday) Sabbath laws were thrown out the window as far as the New Testament Christians were concerned Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
But the more Talmudic you were, the more you would care about "flight on the Sabbath".
Orthodox Jews have reason to be picky about the sabbath ever since II Chronicles 36:21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years. and Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in
causing you to return to this place.
In 167 BC when Antiochus (greek general left over from Alexander the Great's conquest of the mediteranian) commanded the Jews to abandon their religion and adopt Greek ways, and so Mattathias rebelled against him and left Jerusalem and went into the hills with his followers, and the Greeks persued them into the caves and hills and attacked them on the sabbath the jews refused to fight on their day of rest. Josephus says: ""they fought against them on the Sabbath-day, and they burnt them as they were in the caves, without resistance, and without so much as stopping up the entrances of the caves. And they avoided to defend themselves on that day, because they were not willing to break in upon the honour they owed the Sabbath, even in such distresses; for our law requires that we rest upon that day. There were about a thousand, with their wives and children, who were smothered and died in these caves: but many of those that escaped joined themselves to Mattathias, and appointed him to be their ruler, who taught them to fight even on the Sabbath-day ... Antiquities, book XII ppg 274-276." thackery version page 141-142, or WILLIAM WHISTON version Antiquities page 258 which is Book 12, Chap 6 ppg 2. this is event is also recorded in 1 Macccabees 2:32-41
then again the subject of fighting on the sabbath comes up in Jospehus "nor is it lawful for us to journey, either on the Sabbath-day, or on a festival day.” Antiquities book 13 chap 8, ppg 4
and again in 63 BC when the romans first conquered Jerusalem, under Pompey, Josephus says: Antiquities Book XIV or 14 CHAPTER 4. whiston:
2 ... And had it not been our practice, from the days of our forefathers, to rest on the seventh day, this bank could never have been perfected, by reason of the opposition the Jews would have made; for though our law gives us leave then to defend ourselves against those that begin to fight with us and assault us, yet does it not permit us to meddle with our enemies while they do any thing else.
3. Which thing when the Romans understood, on those days which we call Sabbaths they threw nothing at the Jews, nor came to any pitched battle with them; but raised up their earthen banks, and brought their engines into such forwardness, that they might do execution the next day. And any one may hence learn how very great piety we exercise towards God, and the observance of his laws, since the priests were not at all hindered from their sacred ministrations by their fear during this siege, but did still twice a-day, in the morning and about the ninth hour, offer their sacrifices on the altar; nor did they omit those sacrifices, if any melancholy accident happened by the stones that were thrown among them; for although the city was taken on the third month, on the day of the fast, 6 upon the hundred and seventy-ninth olympiad, when Caius Antonius and Marcus Tullius Cicero were consuls, and the enemy then fell upon them, and cut the throats of those that were in the temple; yet could not those that offered the sacrifices be compelled to run away, neither by the fear they were in of their own lives, nor by the number that were already slain, as thinking it better to suffer whatever came upon them, at their very altars, than to omit any thing that their laws required of them.
And yet we see the Roman General Pompey, doing the honorable thing, even in his conquest of Jerusalem: Josephus, Antiquities Book XIV or 14 CHAPTER 4. whiston:
Pompey went into it, (the Temple) and not a few of those that were with him also, and saw all that which it was unlawful for any other men to see but only for the high priests. There were in that temple the golden table, the holy candlestick, and the pouring vessels, and a great quantity of spices; and besides these there were among the treasures two thousand talents of sacred money: yet did Pompey touch nothing of all this, 8 on account of his regard to religion; and in this point also he acted in a manner that was worthy of his virtue. The next day he gave order to those that had the charge of the temple to cleanse it, and to bring what offerings the law required to God; and restored the high priesthood to Hyrcanus, ... Note: Pompey also rebuilt the cities he had destroyed in Judea, after his conquest of Jerusalem. His goal was to leave the province as prosperous as possible, yet submitted to Rome, for taxes sake.
"Moreover, he rebuilt Gadara, 9 which had been demolished a little before, to gratify Demetrius of Gadara, who was his freedman, and restored the rest of the cities, Hippos, and Scythopolis, and Pella, and Dios, and Samaria, as also Marissa, and Ashdod, and Jamnia, and Arethusa, to their own inhabitants: these were in the inland parts. Besides those that had been demolished, and also of the maritime cities, Gaza, and Joppa, and Dora, and Strato's Tower; which last Herod rebuilt after a glorious manner, and adorned with havens and temples, and changed its name to "Caesarea". All these Pompey left in a state of freedom, and joined them to the province of Syria." Josephus: Whiston Edition, Antiquities Book XIV or 14 CHAPTER 4,5.
5. Now the occasions of this misery which came upon Jerusalem were Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, by raising a sedition one against the other; for now we lost our liberty, and became subject to the Romans, and were deprived of that country which we had gained by our arms from the Syrians, and were compelled to restore it to the Syrians. Moreover, the Romans exacted of us, in a little time, above ten thousand talents;"
Note: After Titus conquered Jerusalem in 70 AD, there was no such Tender Loving Care. The Romans were mad at the Jews in 70 AD, and wished only to enslave them and punish them. These were as Jesus said "days of vengenahce". But back here in 63 BC under Pompey, the conquest was actually a blessing to the Jews. For they could not govern themselves, EVER From this time onward. Josephus, whiston edition, Antiquities, Book XIV or 14 CHAPTER 3. How Aristobulus And Hyrcanus (after a bloody civil war) Came To Pompey In Order To Argue Who Ought To Have The Kingdom; note: finally inviting the Romans (actually paying them) to invade and take charge. Now the Jews had access to Roman Roads, Roman Law, Roman Justice (restraint)imposed upon them, they could put no-one to death without Roman trial first. They were enjoying the Pax Romana (peace Roman) through out the empire. Under this rule, the Jews grew prosperous, since now the parasite had a gentile host to suck blood out of. The Romans made Judaism one of their Religio Licita (legal Religions) and
So, when you hear the Jews in the New Testament griping about Roman rule, know that they are just "playing the victim" again. Things would have been much worse under self rule. Think gang warfare of the 3 parties in Jerusalem, 66-70 AD. Yet this parasite prospered under Roman Rule. Titus said they had grown rich under Roman Rule,
(we Romans) who, in the first place, have given you this land to possess; and, in the next place, have set over you kings of your own nation ; and, in the third place, have preserved the laws of your forefathers to you, and have withal permitted you to live, either by yourselves or among others, as it should please you; and, what is our chief favour of all, we have given you leave to gather up that tribute which is paid to God,* with such other gifts that are dedicated to him; nor have we called those that carried these donations to account, nor prohibited them; till at length you became richer than we ourselves, even when you were our enemies; and you made preparations for war against us with our own money: nay, after all, when you were in the enjoyment of all these advantages, you turned your too great plenty against those that gave it you, and, like merciless serpents, have thrown out your poison against those that treated you kindly. Josephus, whiston, page 584 or B6-C4-S2
Other famous Romans said:
“The Jews belong to a dark and repulsive force. One knows how numerous this clique is, how they stick together and what power they exercise through their unions. They are a nation of rascals and deceivers.”
– Marcus Tullius Cicero, famous Roman philosopher, orator and statesman (106 BC – 43 BC)
“The customs of that most criminal nation (Israel) have gained such strength that they have now been received in all lands. The conquered have given laws to the conquerors.”
– Lucius Annaeus Seneca (c. 4 BC – 65 AD)
“[The Jews have] an attitude of hostility and hatred towards all others.”
– Tacitus (c. 56 AD – after 117 AD)
Of course the objection will be raised against me, "how can you say the Jews cannot govern themselves, EVER, after Pompey, 63 BC, just look at Israel today, that land has blossomed after 1948". This is a whole other topic that it would take at least 1000 pages to document, whether Israel could survive without the $6 billion that the USA annually pours into it in foreign aid, whether Israel today is the homo-sexual capital and organ harvesting capital and pedophilia capital, of the world and why the Middle East Bleeds ever since 1948 (read Ted Pikes book, Why the Middle East Bleeds), What Israels role in 911 was, (see America Nuked on 911 by Jim Fetzer and Mike Palecek subtitle: Compliments of the CIA, the Jewish Neo-cons in the US Dept of Defense, and the Mossad), whether Israel was founded on Rothschild money (usuary, rigged stock market booms and crashes, wars started so Rothschild could fund on both sides, etc.) Can that Israel govern itself? If the Devil is in charge of the Synagogue of Satan?
But back onto the topic of the Rapture depending upon when the Great Tribulation occurred. When Jesus said in Mt. 24: Pray that your flight might not be in winter, nor on a sabbath ...
He knew that the Jews had placed limits on how far a good Jew could walk on the sabbath, today this distance is called the "techum" or permitted travel distance on Shabbat (which starts Friday Sundown, and ends Saturday Sundown) usually 2,000 cubits (approximately 1 kilometer).
Naturally, I side with Mattathias the Maccabee on this issue, i.e. in times of emergency, ceremonial law can get set aside. David eating the show bread was Jesus example. But Jesus knew that to the average superstitious Jewish newly minted Christian (had to be newly minted else they would have been swept up in the Rapture) they would still have qualms about fleeing on the sabbath.
As it turned out in history, their flight from Jerusalem did occur in Winter. It occurred on November 8th, 66AD; see WARS-B2-C19 page 496. Here Josephus tells us when the Abomination that causes Desolation gets "set up" or "established" a better translation per Jordan. "This defeat" (of cestius) happened on the eighth day of the month Dios Pmachecran (November-December) in the twelfth year of the reign of Nero. (note: 66 AD, since claudius died in 54). However, winter in Palestine is mild, January is the coldest month, but the temp never drops below 50 degrees F or 10C, Except in the mountains.
These newly saved Jewish Christians were instructed to head to the hills. Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not,
(note: This applies primarily to Jews in Jerusalem at this time 66AD, because Jews outside Jerusalem would not be able to see or know about who was "standing in the place where he/it should not be"
until word got out to the surrounding towns and villages that Eleazar had holed up in the temple with his army and was acting like a tyrant.)
then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains.
So, even if you lived in say Bethlehem (near Jerusalem) or any other city in Judea, Jesus says for your safety, "flee to the mountains." Avoid the cities because there is only death and theft there.
No, you say, I will be like Lot fleeing from Sodom. I will pick some little city in Judea, away from Jerusalem.
Genesis 19:17 And it came to pass, when they (the angels) had brought them (Lot, his wife, and 2 daughters) forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. 18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord: 19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast showed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: 20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
Genesis 19:23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. 26
But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD: 28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt. 30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
Note: Why not go back to living with Abraham? Is life in a cave, isolated from all civilization better than coming back under Gods rule? I count this as a great sin of Lot.
The reason why none of the cities of Judea were safe for you to go are many: 1) Every city now has to decide whether to go with Jerusalem or defect to the Romans. If your city is divided over which way to go, now you have enemies as neighbors who will turn you in. And you are engaged in Civil War in your own town. Also, Jerusalem is about to divide up the whole land and appoint generals over each section, who will start stockpiling weapons and supplies and training local men to fight against the Romans. Furthermore, robbers, and false messiah's will go through the land terrorizing the people, you can read about this in Josephus pages 497 - 526 or Book 2 Chapters 20 thru Book 4, Chapter-2. Lastly, Vespasian and the Roman army will soon besiege your city, if you open your city gates to him and let his army in, you get to live, and continue under Roman rule. And now you are gambling that Rome will defeat Jerusalem. If Rome loses to Jerusalem again, and your city capitulated to the Romans, much wrath will come down on you from Jerusalem. If you resist the Roman army, all males will get slaughtered when they break through your city walls.
So suppose you decided that living in the hills (mountains) is just too primitive for you. Too much work. You decide to pick a smaller city in Judea. Here is your fate.
Page 492 Wars B2-C18-S1
1. Now the people of Caesarea had slain the Jews that were among them ... insomuch that in one hour’s time above two thousand Jews were killed, and all Caesarea was emptied of its Jewish inhabitants ; for Florus caught such as ran away, and sent them in bonds to the galleys. Upon which (news) the whole nation (of the Jews) was greatly enraged; so they divided themselves into several parties, and laid waste the villages of the Syrians, and their neighboring cities, Philadelphia, and Sebonitis, and Gerasa, and Pella (note, the Christians were raptured out of there by then), and Scythopolis, and after them Gadara, and Hippos; and falling upon Gaulonitis, some cities they destroyed there and some they set on fire, and then they went to Kedasa, belonging to the Tyrians, and to Ptolemais, and to Gaba, and to Caesarea; nor was either Sebaste (Samaria) or Askelon able to oppose the violence with which they were attacked; and when they had burned these to the ground, they entirely demolished Anthedon and Gaza; many also of the villages that were about every one of those cities were plundered, and an immense slaughter was made of the men who were caught in them.
2. However, the Syrians were even with the Jews in the multitude of the men whom they slew ; for they killed those whom they caught in their cities, and that not only out of the hatred they bare them, as formerly, but to prevent the danger under which they were from them; so that the disorders in all Syria were terrible, and every city was divided into two armies encamped one against another, and the preservation of the one party was in the destruction of the other; so the daytime was spent in shedding blood, and the night in fear, which was of the two the more terrible ... It was then common to see cities filled with dead bodies, still lying unburied, and those of old men, mixed with infants all dead and scattered about together; women also lay among them, without any covering for their nakedness: you might then see the whole province full of inexpressible calamities, ...
3. ... the people of Scythopolis ... cut all their (the Jews in that city) throats, some of them as they lay unguarded, and some as they lay asleep. The number that was slain was above thirteen thousand, and then they plundered them of all that they had.
5. Besides this murder at Scythopolis, the other cities rose up against the Jews that were among them: those of Askelon slew two thousand five hundred, and those of Ptolemais two thousand, and put not a few into bonds; those of Tyre also put a great number to death, but kept a greater number in prison; moreover, those of Hippos and those of Gadara did the like, while they put to death the boldest of the Jews, but kept those of whom they were most afraid in custody ; as did the rest of the cities of Syria, according as they every one either hated them or were afraid of them ; only the Antiochians, the Sidonians, and Apamians, spared those that dwelt with them, and they would not endure either to kill any of the Jews, or to put them in bonds. Antioch (which is the metropolis of Syria, and, without dispute, deserves the place of the third city in the habitable earth that was under the Roman empire, both in magnitude and other marks of prosperity). (note, the Christians were raptured out of Antioch by then, but may have left their good morals upon the minds of those left behind.)
Page 497 WARS-B2-C20 2. In the meantime, the people of Damascus, when they were informed of the destruction of the Romans, (Cestius army) set about the slaughter of those Jews that were among them; ... so they came upon the Jews, and cut their throats, as being in a narrow place, in number ten thousand, and all of them unarmed, and this in one hour’s time, without anybody to disturb them.
Luke gives us additional valuable info. He expands the window of opportunity to leave. Luke makes no mention of an Abomination of Desolation, he just says "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies", because the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 was when Cestius surrounded Jerusalem with the 12th legion. There may have been opportunity to go over to the Romans then, as Cestius made it through the walls of Jerusalem right up to the cloisters of the temple. WARS-B2-C19 page 496 But you were a fool if you stayed with the Roman Army, since they were about to get hounded to death on a very deadly retreat. See Josephus page 495 thru 497 for more detail on how Cestius almost took Jerusalem, if only he had persisted a little longer, and of his disastrous retreat. This is found in Josephus WARS-B2-C19 (and chapter 20) pages 495-496 WHAT CESTIUS DID AGAINST THE JEWS; AND HOW, UPON HIS BESIEGING JERUSALEM, HE RETREATED FROM THE CITY, WITHOUT ANY JUST OCCASION IN THE WORLD. AS ALSO WHAT SEVERE CALAMITIES HE UNDERWENT FROM THE JEWS IN HIS RETREAT.
You needed to take Jesus advice literally and leave Judea and head for the hills.
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
NASB says Luke 21:21 and those who are inside the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
whereas the NIV says Luke 21:21 let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
Now here is an interesting verse RE the Jewish Tribulation. Luke 21:22 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Ok, let us search Dispy commentaries about this verse, and you get very little unfavorable about the Talmudic Jews, since the Dispys in America (Jerry Fallwell and Liberty U, Oral Roberts, Dallas Theological Seminary) have huge Jewish donations. And they are afraid to portray God as a vengeful God.
Ask them, " Luke 21:22 22For these be the days of vengeance,
Vengeance by whom and against whom, and for what? The Dispys are for the most part, afraid to finger the Talmudic Jews. Some will say "oh that applied only to that generation that crucified Christ and persecuted the Christians, i.e. only to the first century Talmudic Jews, but God LOVES todays Talmudic Jews, especially the ones "back in the land". So, Let us ask the Dispys again, what are the things that are written about these days of vengenance when Luke 21:22 says that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
"
Some of their commentaries may have the courage to point to Jesus bearing His cross on the way to Golgatha, saying to the Jewish women weeping for Jesus, Luke 23:28 Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30Then “ ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’ 31For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”
But none of the Dispy commentaries and few of the reformed, calvinistic, covenantal ones will have the courage to point to the "desolations have been determined"
in Daniel, or 1 Thes 2:16 But wrath has come upon them to the uttermost,
or Deut 28 curses, or that the secptre shall not depart from Judah until Shiloh comes,
or ANY of the replacement theology verses, nor of the parable of the vinegrowers (sharecroppers) Matthew 21:33 nor to David in the Psalms, "Let their table before them become a snare, and bend their backs forever";
nor of Matthew 23:29 Behold I am sending you prophets, wise men and scribes, and some of them you will kill, and crucify and scourge in your synagogues that upon YOU may fall all the righteous blood shed from the righteous Abel to Zechariah son of Berechiah whom you slew between the temple and the altar.
Continuing on with the theme Where is the Jewish Tribulation going to happen?
Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
In Luke 17:37 Jesus is asked "where" will all this happen? I.E. "where will all these things you just spoke of in Luke 17:20-36 take place"? The answer is: all over the Oikumene (Roman known world). Jews had settled all over the civilized world, over 80k in Alexandria Egypt alone. When the Talmudic Jews rebelled in 66 AD the zealots sent out an appeal for universal aid for Jerusalem. Jews of the world, UNITE! behind our bid for independence. Send Aid. Send money, Send men. Thus you read of the slaughter in Caesarea, Alexandria and other places. So, wherever the corpse is (dead body of Moses, i.e. Jews according to the flesh, according to the law, not the Spirit), wherever that dead body is, there the vultures (eagles, as in Roman Eagles) will gather (to pick her bones clean). This was a permanent judgment on the Talmudic Jews, and their covenant and their temple and their priesthood, by God. But the stupid Christian Zionists of today are trying their best to put flesh back on those bones picked clean by the Romans, and resurrect that covenant. That Christless, worthless animal sacrificing covenant that could never take away sin.
Likewise the questioner who is asking "where Lord" is also asking where will this rapture take place? Answer, where ever there are Christians suffering the Great Tribulation. I.E. all over the Roman known world.
OK, so when was the rapture?
Daniel 9:26,27 26 says "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah
(Jesus) be cut off
(technically excommunicated, but die is also appropriate, given the facts of history.), but not for himself
(based on His own sins or crimes): and the people
(Romans) of the prince that shall come
(Jesus) shall destroy the city
(Jerusalem) and the sanctuary
(Herods Temple, AKA the 2nd temple). And its end will come with a flood
(of men pouring over the walls); even to the end
(of the age, i.e. 70 AD, end of the Temple, end of the Covenant, end of your people Daniel, no more (Old Testament O.T. Old Covenant, ethnic, false) Talmudic Jews, because there is no more covenant for them after 70 AD, end of the Beast too, as Rome virtually "died" in 69AD, under civil war during the year of 4 emperors, then Rome was resurrected by Vespasian, Revelation 13:3 and 13:12) there will be war; desolations are determined.
(Both of Judaism and Rome)
Daniel 9:27 KJV And he
(Messiah, AKA the prince that shall come) will confirm a covenant
(too long to insert here, see ppg below) with many
(Christians in the Oikumene i.e. Roman civilized world) for one week
(7 years), and in the midst of the week he
(messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
(God perceived the slaughter of the saints as a "sacrifice and oblation" to him, a "sweet savor"; for more on this concept of the Saints sacrifices being acceptable to God see also Mark 9:49; Romans 12:1; Eph 5:2; Phil 2:17; 4:18; Heb 13:15; Heb 13:16; 1 Pet 2:5; Rev 6:9. Making them to cease, was the rapture.)
JJ says Daniel 9:27 should read "And in the middle of the week he will put a stop to Sacrifice and Tribute. Dan 9:21 Often mistranslated as “grain” or “meal” or "cereal" offering; Leviticus 2. The Tribute is a memorial that calls on God to come. Gabriel has come from God in response to Daniel's prayer-memorial. So the word "offering" in Daniel 9:21 is min-hat and in 27 "offering" is U-min-hah, both have the same hebrew base word 4503e Strongs Often mistranslated as “grain” or “meal” or "cereal" offering; It should just be called "the Tribute". The Tribute is a memorial that calls on God to come.
Continuing on with Daniel 9:27 KJV
and for the overspreading of abominations
(abominations done to the Christians during the Neronic persecution, per 1st Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
continuing on with Daniel 9:27 he shall make
(the Talmudic Jews) desolate, even until the consummation,
(consummation of the age, i.e. 70 AD destruction of the Temple, the Levitical Priesthood, the ceremonial law, that whole way of relating to God, known as the "old world creation" or "old covenant") and that determined
(prophesied) shall be poured upon the desolate
(the Talmudic Jews).
OK, how does Jesus "confirm the covenant"?
What covenant? The covenant God has with His covenant people The Christians, and the Jews (2 different covenants) at this time. For the Christians confirming the covenant means testing or proving the covenant people so that "it is he who endures to the end who shall be saved",
i.e. hit them with some severe tribulation (empire wide persecution under Nero and the Talmudic Jews). Then Jesus confirms HIS part of the covenant by taking them to heaven.
For the Talmudic Jews, to prove the covenant or confirm it (means to give them what they deserve. What was promised. "Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(Judaism is the carcass, Rome's legions are the eagles. God at this time regards Judaism as a dead and stinking carcass. He wants to replace the Levitical priesthood with the Melchizadekial one.
He wants the endless animal sacrifices to cease and have the once-for-all-time perfect sacrifice of His Son be universally accepted as the ONLY atoning sacrifice. He wants that idol of the Talmudic Jews called the temple to be torn down. The father is going to be the righteous land owner of Matthew 21:33 and show the world and all the angels, what His justice looks like. So, this whole world system, covenant, way of relating to God will be "shaken" out of its place." Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
(Jewish Trib, i.e. from when Albinus started persecuting the Jews, a year or so after he took office, say August of 63 to August of 70 AD when the temple came down) "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(i.e. all political and religious rulers i.e. the lights that guide you).
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;
(land quake, i.e. the Land of Judea) and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
(all political and religous leaders that ruled over the Jews) even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(Why a fig tree. Why not a sycamore, an oak, or a palm tree, or just an apple tree? Nope, gotta be a FIG tree, see Israel is a Fig Tree
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
(2 Peter 3:10 fulfilled) and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(these are the great and small men in society, the well connected and the "islands") Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth,
(should be "land") and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(now here, rocks and mountains are literal stone and dirt, not men) Revelation 6:16 And (they) said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
This is also the fulfillment of Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
The Jewish Tribulation, is not the time of Jacobs trouble, per Jeremiah 30. That refers to the Babylonian captivity. The Daniel 9:27 confirming the covenant with many Jewish Trib ran from August of 63, a year into the Roman Procurator Luceius Albinus reign from 62 until 64 and continuing thru Gessius Florus (64-66AD) all the way up to the end of Judaism when the temple came down in Aug of 70. Naturally there were former false Jews (Talmudic Jews)walking around, claiming to be True Jews, getting persecuted by the Romans even after 70 AD and even after the Bar Kochba revolution 132-136AD, and many Dispys would say even down to today, the poor "Jews" are still getting persecuted (Hitler "and the fake holocost [they were "labor" camps, remember, not death camps] and all the anti-semitism in existence even today. The poor false "Jews" [Talmudic Jews] always the innocent victims.)
If Daniel 9:27 also predicts a week of confirming the covenant with the false Jews, then giving them what they deserve, it means that God will reward Israel, i.e. the False Jews, according to how well they have obeyed their covenant with Yahweh. I.E. punish the harlot bride, by burning her w. fire Leviticus 21:9; Psalm 89:38,ff; Matt 21:43,44; Luke 19:43-44; Matt 22:6,7; 1 Thess 2:14-16; Rev 18:4-6;
Putting a stop to sacrifice and oblation in the middle of the week does not apply to the Talmudic Jews. They get a full 7 years of anguish, robbers in the countryside raiding small towns, civil war in Jerusalem, conquest by Vespasian, and then by Titus.
But, back to Daniels other people, the Christians.
So, what is our best guess on when the Great Trib started, ended and have the Rapture happen in the middle of it?
We know for sure that Nero died in June of 68 AD and that all of 69 was the year of 4 emperors (Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian). Now you dont have time to persecute the Christians if you are a Roman empire that is fighting for its life in 69 with all the accompanying upheavals of civil war) and since Nero had been dead approx 6 months, Nero (who had Peter and Paul killed, in 64 to please the Talmudic Jews, which kicked off the Great Trib. Any later than this and Nero wasn't interested in pleasing the Talmudic Jews, but in Robbing their temple which is why he sent Florus. Also, ask yourself what great event happened that the Christians (John writing Rev) knew that they were in the GREAT TRIB? If you kill Christianity's two greatest leaders, that would send shock waves around the entire Christian world. Harnack dogmatically asserts that the martyrdom of Paul in July 64 is ‘an assured fact’. And Ed Stevens claims Peter was killed at roughly the same time as Paul, AD 63,64.
Ed Stevens places the Rapture at June of 66 during Pentecost when all the multitude of voices were heard to say in the temple "let us remove hence from this place". see page 161 Final_Decade-Stevens.pdf
This gives Eds' Christian great trib a start date of Jan 63 or Dec 62 (but it had to be going on when John wrote Rev. per "I John, your brother and fellow companion in the Tribulation was on the Isle called Patmos when ... ")
and Ed claims John wrote Rev in the summer of 62 (arrested and exiled to Patmos in April of 62). And it makes ED's great trib end date, Jan 70 or Dec 69 or thereabouts.
So here are the problems with Eds rapture chronology.
1) Daniel 9:27 says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
Mid week is 1290 days or 3.5 years into the Great Trib. But if Ed starts his great trib when John wrote Revelation when John admitted he was in the Great Trib now, that means Eds Rapture happened 4 years after the start of the Great Trib. not 3.5 as it must. If Ed goes with a great trib start of Dec 63, that gives him his 3.5 year fulfillment of Dan 12 fine, but it counters his John writing Rev in summer of 62.
2) "Let us remove hence" is not what you or I would say when getting raptured. We would be looking up at Jesus, and excitedly say "take me with you" or "hallelujah you are here" or something joyful, not a shaking the dust off our feet, condemnation of the evil temple, "we are leaving this hellhole"
Ed justifies his timing with the following logic: "Note that Josephus gives us the exact day and hour when this event occurred (on the day of Pentecost at the hour of the evening sacrifices), where it occurred (in the Jerusalem Temple), and who witnessed it (the officiating priests). The Jewish priests testified about what they felt and heard in the Temple at night on Pentecost in the year AD 66, at the very time when the Zealot war with Rome was about to begin."
"This transfer of a large multitude from one place to another in the unseen realm seems to have
been the resurrection of the dead and the change of the living saints, when they were caught up to be
with Christ. This event occurred at Pentecost, fifty days after Passover. Notice also that it occurred at
night, not during the daytime. That explains why no one noticed the snatching away of the living saints.
Anyone who noticed their absence the next day would have merely thought the Christians were
arrested in the night and taken away to be killed, or that they fled away during the night to get away
from the persecution." Page 221 Final_Decade-Stevens.pdf off his web site preterist.org
Ed continues on page 223 (ibid): "What group of people in the unseen realm would be leaving one part of that realm for another part of it, and why? [Hint: The disembodied souls of the dead saints left Hades and entered heaven.] And what does the Temple have to do with this transfer from one location to another? [Hint: According to Jewish tradition, it was the one place on earth where heaven and earth met. It was the gateway to heaven in the unseen realm. Many Talmudic Jews also believed that the huge rock on which the Temple stood, was the lid which covered the opening to the Hadean realm. In other words, the Temple sat on top of the rock that sealed the gates of Hades, so that if the dead were ever raised out of Hades, they would have to come out through the gates of Hades right there in Jerusalem near the Temple mount.]"
"Furthermore, it is worth remembering that this event occurred on Pentecost about 45 days after the angelic armies were seen in the clouds "a few days after Passover" [Wars 6.5.3 (6:296)]. If the angels were there, then Christ had to be present with them in the unseen realm above. In Matthew 24:31, Jesus said that after His arrival He would send forth His angels to gather together the elect. This transfer of a large multitude of souls from one place to another in the unseen realm sure sounds like the Resurrection of the Dead out of Sheol (Hades) and their entrance into the heavenly realm above. If this was in fact the Resurrection, then it was also the very “moment in the twinkling of an eye” when the living saints were “changed” into their immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and “caught up” together with the resurrected dead to meet Christ in the unseen realm above (1 Thess 4:17)."
"For more detailed information about this event, there are several PDF files which provide other
translations of Josephus’ account of this event by Greek scholars, as well as the parallel accounts found
in Tacitus, Yosippon, Hegesippus, and Eusebius. If you would like to have this amazing information,
simply email me at to request my two articles in Fulfilled Magazine on "Let Us
Remove Hence" and "More on Let Us Remove Hence," plus all their related charts, notes, and quotes
files in PDF format. For more information about the Resurrection, Change, and Rapture events, here are some excellent resources available for order from the IPA website (http://preterist.org)"
To this logic of Ed Stevens, I (Francis) say: How do we know that these voices were peoples spirits? Is Ed relying on "The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain, will be caught up to meet Him in the air."
What if they were just angels guarding the Temple from demons, who had enough of the Jewish persecution of the saints from 30 to 66AD Matt 23:29ff, and Jesus joked "for surely no prophet can die outside of Jerusalem" and they were tired of striving with the demon posession of this generation: Matthew 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
To all the Dispys out there who say God can never leave or forsake Israel, because of His unconditional covenant with Abraham, I say 1 Kings 6:11 And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, 12 Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: 13And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.
The If-Then statement makes it a conditional covenant. See also 1 Kings 9:6-9 For the complete set of verses on why God forsook Israel click here and here. See Ezekiel 10 and 11:22 for what it looked like the first time God forsook His temple, in disgust.
Why God forsook the temple the first time, looks a lot like why He would do it the second time: Ezekiel 11:5 And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me and told me to declare that this is what the LORD says: “That is what you are thinking, O house of Israel; and I know the thoughts that arise in your minds. 6 You have multiplied those you killed in this city and filled its streets with the dead. 7 Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: The slain you have laid within this city are the meat, and the city is the pot; but I will remove you from it. 8 You fear the sword, so I will bring the sword against you, declares the Lord GOD. 9 I will bring you out of the city and deliver you into the hands of foreigners, and I will execute judgments against you. 10 You will fall by the sword, and I will judge you even to the borders of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD. ... 11 For you have neither followed My statutes nor practiced My ordinances, but you have conformed to the ordinances of the nations around you.”
3) I (Francis Kuhlman [last name pronounced "coolman, yes it is German"]) place the rapture some time around October of 65 AD. That is before Jerusalem rebels against Rome in 66AD. After Jerusalem threw off the Roman Restraint, they would be free to kill anyone even suspected of being a Christian, and do it as cruelly as they could. Christian Persecution would have gone thru the roof, so Jesus got us out of there before all that started in 66 AD. I base my date completely on having to be 3.5 years into the Great Trib which had to start when John started to write Revelation (or even slightly before, because John implies that the Christian world was Already in the Great Trib, not that it was just starting now). So, all you Bible scholars out there, if you can pinpoint when John got exiled to Patmos, and come up with another date than Ed Stevens April of 62, then you can fine tune my date for the month of the Rapture. Just make it 3.5 years into the Great Trib and assume John started writing Rev. as soon as he set foot on Patmos. Eds date of April of 62 (John getting exiled to Patmos) means the very latest we can start the Great Trib is April of 62, since it was "ongoing" when John wrote Rev. I am not going to assume John sat around on Patmos, twiddling his thumbs waiting on Divine Revelation. I assume he got to work right away, writing Rev. The sooner you can get Rev written, the sooner it can go into circulation to all the churches, and warn them of the events to come. So if the Great Trib started in April 62 then 3.5 years later would be Oct 65. So from the time that the continual, ongoing sacrifice of the saints stops, to the abom of desol getting either set up or established or destroyed, is 1290 days. Means in April of 69 some event had to happen called the abom of desolation
Let us start the Christian Great Trib. immediately after the death of festus (the last good Roman Procurator over Judea, Josephus page 422) who would have kept justice till he died. Talmudic Jews would have immediately started persecuting Christians, even before they killed James. James was just the most famous of the murders committed. Porcius Festus was procurator from May of 60- April of 62AD. Apr 62 – Ananus II was appointed as High Priest, also in Apr 62 – Ananus II arrested James and some of his companions.
If we go with the Book of Rev being written in April of 62, John started writing Rev as soon as he got to Patmos, 3.5 years later is a rapture in October of 65, and April of 69 is when the great trib ended. Vitellius was emperor of Rome from 19 April 69 to 20 Dec 69. So I think just as soon as Vitellius came to power, the empire wide persecution of Christians ended.
What was going on in Judea when the Rapture happened
Well, Josephus says in WARS-B2-C14 pages 483, that Albinus was a very wicked procurator, read about him above in this article, just search for the term "Albinus". But on page of WARS-B2-C14 page 484 we read:
1. Now it was that Festus succeeded Felix as procurator, and made it his business to correct those that made disturbances in the country. So he caught the greatest part of the robbers, and destroyed a great many of them.
But then Albinus, who succeeded Festus, did not execute his office as the other had done; nor was there any sort of wickedness that could be named but he had a hand in it. Accordingly, he did not only, in his political capacity, steal and plunder every one’s substance, nor did he only burden the whole nation with taxes, but he permitted the relations of such as were in prison for robbery, and had been laid there, either by the senate of every city, or by the former procurators, to redeem them for money; and nobody remained in the prisons as a malefactor but he who gave him nothing.
At this time it was that the enterprises of the seditious at Jerusalem were very formidable; the principal men among them purchasing leave of Albinus to go on with their seditious practices ; while that part of the people who delighted in disturbances joined themselves to such as had fellowship with Albinus: and every one of these wicked wretches were encompassed with his band of robbers, while he himself, like an arch-robber, or a tyrant, made a figure among his company, and abused his authority over those about him, in order to plunder those that lived quietly.
The effect of which was this, that those who lost their goods were forced to hold their peace, when they had reason that, if the peace continued, he (Albinus) should have the Jews for his accusers before Caesar; but that if he could procure them to make a revolt, he should divert their laying lesser crimes to his charge, by a misery that was so much greater; he therefore did every day augment their calamities, in order to induce them to a rebellion.
And although such was the character of Albinus, yet did Gessius Florus, who succeeded him, demonstrate Albinus to have been a most excellent person, upon the comparison: for Albinus did the greatest part of his rogueries in private, and with a sort of dissimulation; but Gessius Florus did his unjust actions to the harm of the nation after a pompous manner; and as though he had been sent as an executioner to punish condemned malefactors, he omitted no sort of rapine, or of vexation: where the case was really pitiable, he was most barbarous; and in things of the greatest turpitude, he was most impudent ; nor could any one outdo him in disuising the truth; nor could any one contrive more subtle ways of deceit than he did.
He indeed thought it but a petty offence to get money out of single persons; so he spoiled whole cities, and ruined entire bodies of men at once, and did almost publicly proclaim it all the country over, that they had liberty given them to turn robbers, upon this condition, that he might go shares with them in the spoils. Accordingly, this his greediness of gain was the occasion that entire toparchies were brought to desolation ; and a great many of the people left their own country, and fled into foreign provinces.
Florus was procurator of Judea since 64AD and was plundering the people. He would have been no friend of Christians. Josephus says in Antiquities, chapter 11: ""This Florus was so wicked, and so violent in the use of his authority, that the Jews took Albinus to have been [comparatively] their benefactor ; so excessive were the mischiefs that he brought upon them. For Albinus concealed his wickedness, and was careful that it might not be discovered to all men;
But Gessius Florus, as though he had been sent on purpose to shew his crimes to everybody, made a pompous ostentation of them to our nation, as never omitting any sort of violence, nor any unjust sort of punishment; for he was not to be moved by pity, and never was satisfied with any degree of gain that came in his way; nor had he any more regard to great than to small acquisitions, but became a partner with the robbers themselves; for a great many fell then into that practice without fear, as having him for their security, and depending on him, that he would save them harmless in their particular robberies ; so that there were no bounds set to the nation’s miseries;
But the unhappy Jews, when they were not able to bear the devastations which the robbers made among them, were all under a necessity of leaving their own habitations, and of flying away, as hoping to dwell more easily anywhere else in the world among foreigners [than in their own country.] And what need I say any more upon this head? since it was this Florus who necessitated us to take up arms against the Romans, while we thought it better to be destroyed at once, than by little and little. Now this war began in the second year of the government of Florus, and the twelfth year of the reign of Nero."
Other trivia, around the Roman Empire which probably did not affect the Rapture were:
In 65 AD A plot was discovered against the Emperor Nero, known as the 'Pisonian Conspiracy', led by G. Calpurnius Piso. Nineteen men are executed or forced to commit suicide. That year, we see the death of Nero's wife, Poppaea, whom he kicked to death after an argument over his coming home late from the races.
In 65 Seneca was forced to take his own life for alleged complicity in the Pisonian conspiracy to assassinate Nero, of which he was probably innocent. In Apr 65 there was a plague in Rome (and other plagues around the empire). About 30,000 died (according to Suetonius) in a plague that struck Rome in the Spring of 65. Afterwards there was a powerful whirlwind or hurricane which destroyed crops and fruit trees over a wide area in Campania.
This sounds like some of those marytered saints during the first half of the Great Trib washing their feet in the blood of the wicked, especially after Neros' 64 AD blaming of the great fire of Rome on the Christians. But I can find nothing significant around October of 65 to tie a Rapture to. Perhaps thats why Jesus said it would happen at a day and hour that you do not expect.
Now, how is the end of the GREAT TRIB related to Nero? 'Nero who started the empire wide persecution of the Christians in 64 by blaming the great fire of Rome on the Christians (at the behest of his Jewish wife Poppea). Since Nero (and Judaism) were the driving forces behind the persecution of the GREAT TRIB, once Nero was dead, and the Romans saw how well the Christians died in the arena over the past several years, (no blubbering for mercy from the Romans, instead praising God, singing hymns, praying for and forgiving their persecutors) they (Roman spectators in the arena) actually began to feel sorry for the Christians and wanted to stop butchering them, so after June of 68 (Neros' death) the persecution slowly died out throughout the empire, ending in lets say April of 69 AD when Vitellius became emperor. This was the 3rd new emperor after Nero suicided, and by now the Roman empire was used to civil war, and the hated Nero and his hated policies were ancient history in their memories. Why carry out a dead emperors orders, especially when everyone knew that the persecution was based on a lie anyway. Nero burned Rome in 64 AD. Another reason to end the empire wide persecution of Christians in 69-70AD is after 7 years of persecution, the Romans saw that the Christians did not stand with the brothers (Talmudic Jews), and instead obeyed Rev 18:4 Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
The Christians hero (Jesus) was hated by the Talmudic Jews. The Christians worship day was moved to Sunday, not left at Saturday like the Talmudic Jews sabbath. Talmudic Jews would not eat with nor associate with Gentiles, considering them unclean, the Christians were just the opposite, realizing that we all started out as sinners in need of forgiveness.
The Jewish - Roman war would eventually reach a point where the Talmudic Jews got desperate (as Vespasian swept across the land of Judea, conquering city after city) and so the Talmudic Jews retreated to Jerusalem, trusting that God would protect His capitol city, (i.e. the strong delusion). Talmudic Jews, fighting the Romans in a besieged city like Jerusalem would not have had access to any Christians except those Jewish martyrs converting to Christianity inside Jerusalem.
Note, the rapture may not have taken all Christians from the earth. There is a legend that says that John traveled to Ephesus where he took care of Virgin Mary and that he lived there until the end of his life. Eastons Bible Dictionary and Foxes Book of Martyrs seem to counter any John getting raptured in 65 AD theory.
We preterists believe Rev was written in April thru the summer of 62 AD, by John on Patmos (banished by Nero aka Domitian at that time.
For all you Irenaeus fans who insist on late dating Rev all the way into the 90's based on his AGAINST HERESIES, when Irenaeus said "for that was seen nearly in our own day, near the end of Domitians reign" he meant Nero, whose full name was Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus; for proof of this, see:
Josephus Antiquities Book 20,8,1 "Now Claudius Cesar died when he had reigned thirteen years, eight months, and twenty days; and a report went about that he was poisoned by his wife Agrippina. Her father was Germanicus, the brother of Caesar. Her husband was Domitius Anobarbus, one of the most illustrious persons that was in the city of Rome; after whose death, and her long continuance in widowhood, Claudius took her to wife. She brought along with her a son, Domitius, of the same name with his father. "
Also, Ed Stevens documents in his book FINAL DECADE page 36 "Oct 13, 54 – Nero began his reign as emperor at 17 years old. He reigned from AD 54-68. [Antiq. 20:148-150 (20.8.1)] Nero’s real name was Lucius Domitius Aenobarbus. In Ken Gentry’s book, Before Jerusalem Fell, in footnote 16 on page 49 he tells us that, “...Nero’s name was Domitius Nero...” In this section of Gentry’s book, he mentions the confusion that Irenaeus had regarding his mention of Domitian in connection with John’s writing of the book of Revelation. Gentry also talks about Nero’s original name in his book, The Beast, on pages 14-15, where he says, “...Lucius Domitius Aenobarbus, better known by his adoptive name, Nero Caesar. ...The father of Nero was Enaeus Domitius Aenobarbus ... mother was Agrippina, the sister of Emperor Gaius (Caligula) and niece of the emperor Claudius.
There are several scholars who believe that Irenaeus was referring to Nero when he said that John was still alive toward the end of the reign of “Domitianou.” This is an adjective form of Domitius (Nero’s family name) and not the nominative form of Domitian’s name (which would instead be “Domitianikos”). If it was a reference to “Domitian” it would most likely follow the form of proper names which had the definite article. Since Irenaeus does not use the definite article, it would seem more likely that he is referring to a family name (Domitius) rather than to the more formal imperial name. [Antiq. 20:149-150 (20.8.1)]; cf. Gentry BEFORE JERUSALEM FELL, p. 49 note 16, and Beast of Revelation, pp. 14-15.
But continuing on with when was the Christian great Trib. on page 24 WHAT HAPPENED IN 70 AD: Josephus pinpoints its beginning in AD 62 when Festus died (and before Albinus could get to Judea) and Ananus II was installed as high priest. The Talmudic Jews were without a Roman governor for 3 months. Ananus II took advantage of this opportunity to arrest "James and some of his companions" It was this Ananus of whom Acts 23:3 says "Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Do you sit to try me according to the Law, and in violation of the Law, order me to be struck?”
God must have shown Paul the manner of Ananus death.
It was during these first 3.5 years of the "great tribulation" AD April 62- Oct 65 that James, Paul and Peter suffered martyrdom, and apostle John was exiled to the island of Patmos, where he wrote the book of Revelation. In the opening chapter of Revelation, John says "I, John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
According to Papias the late first century Christian historian, John was released from Patmos to reside in Ephesus, where he was killed by the Talmudic Jews during the Neronic persecution (great tribulation). The book of Rev, says Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation.
So, it was still possible for John to go thru the great Trib (which started at April of 62 with the corrupt Roman Procurators "selling their justice to the highest bidder (always the Talmudic Jews)" then proceeded with Rome putting to death Peter and Paul in 64, 65 and Rome blaming the great fire of Rome on the Christians, and ending in 69AD (Daniel 9:27) the year of 4 emperors, i.e the Roman civil wars, "apparent death of Rome, per Rev 13:3"). However The Bible is silent regarding when or how John died. Information regarding his last days comes to us primarily from tradition. So, here is more bad tradition:
The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia, in an article about his life, states that writers in the second and third centuries A.D. accepted a widely held tradition that the apostle spent his last days in Ephesus. According to the Catholics, Justin Martyr also referred to John as an apostle of Jesus who lived in Ephesus. St. Irenaeus, Eusebius and still others, again according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, all agree that when John left the isle of Patmos, he being The last living original disciple then spent his remaining days in Ephesus until he died somewhere around the close of the first century. Taken from https://www.biblestudy.org/question/how-did-apostle-john-die.html
The main problem with this "tradition" is John would have been the ONLY remaining Apostle alive to guide the entire Catholic (Universal) church for the next 20 or 30 years after Christ raptured most everyone out of there. Though conversions must have still happened all thru history. Where are Johns' epistles (letters to the churches) like Paul wrote.
Do you think there werent church problems, heresies, etc to be addressed? If John did write letters to the churches during this period, why werent they inscripturated like Pauls were, so all the churches could read them, learn from them (us today too) and apply them? It is understandable that John would write no letters to churches during the rest of the tribulation after the rapture, but what about from 69AD on to the end of the century? Why not report on the destruction of Jerusalem. And by the way, what bishop would dare call himself "pope" if an apostle were still alive? John had to be the next "pope" after Peter died, if John lived into the 90's.
Jesus said to Peters' query "Lord what about this man?"
To which Jesus replied "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you".
This may seem unfair of Jesus, to have Peter martyred, and John get raptured out of here, suffering little, but consider that everything has its heavenly reward. Peter gets to wear the martyrs crown for all eternity, perhaps John does not.
Keep this heavenly treasure concept in mind next time you hear of aborted babies D&E'd out of the womb without anethestic, or sex slaved little kids sold to pedophiles, or little children tortured to generate adrenochrome, then snuff filmed to death, or as is currently going on in Gaza, many an apartment building gets bombed by Israel's genocide (US weapons taxpayer funded by you and me, of course), the when Gazans dig through the rubble they find a crushed mother whose last act was to clutch her little child to her breast to try to protect it from falling debris, both either buried alive and suffocated, or crushed to death. How could God allow that to go on? Answer: They will get their heavenly reward for all eternity and probably will be nearer to God and shine brighter than you or I and all other gutless American Christians who continue to remain silent, in the face of Israels genocide, here in 2024.
Like Ed, I believe John remained till Jesus came. What I dont know is if he remained just till the rapture (that coming of Jesus, i.e. when that which is perfect is come
, in 1 Cor 13:10), or till the 70 AD "cloud coming" in wrath and judgment on the Talmudic Jews. Like Ed, I ask Why leave John hanging around on planet earth after the rapture? There are no Christians in the Oikumene (civilized known world) to shepherd, no regenerate. Elect, unbelievers, yes, but John cant know who they were, nor get them saved, or that undoes the "cut short or no life would have been saved"
of Daniel 9. After the Great Trib ended, say January of 70, there would have been a tremendous need for an apostle to be alive down on planet earth and ministering to Gods people (even as today, sorry you Mormons, your apostles dont qualify). But then where are his letters to the churches? Why wouldn't he document that the Rapture had happened, if he lived through it. Why not claim and explain how the 70 AD conflagration was Jesus soon coming predicted all over the New Testament. But that there would also be far in the future coming of Jesus, to end the millennium.
Ed Stevens has done some excellent work on the whole history of this period, go to http://preterist.org/ or email him at preterist1@preterist.org. In fact I base much of my conclusions on his historical research.
I differ from Ed on a few points:
Scripture speaks of "the last day" (Jn 6:39-44, 54, 11:24, 12:48). This is different from the "last days" of the Old Covenant Age (which ended in 70 AD). I believe this "last day" is the end of human history at the end of the millennium. Ed sees no last day of history. Though he thinks the millennium (or kingdom age) ended in 70 AD. He just sees earth history going on forever.
I think the Abomination that causes desolation in Daniel 12:11 is Eleazar captain of the temple guard, and son of Ananus the high priest. Ed lists several possibilities, (one of whom is Eleazar, and Jordan is worse and ties it back to the days of the Maccabees when Antiochus Epiphanes slaughtered a pig on the altar.
For why Eleazar is the best candidate for being the Abomination that causes desolation, and what two excellent bible scholars: Ed Stevens and James B Jordan (Theopolis Institute) say about the Abomination of Desolation click here
Ed also thinks the man of sin - man of lawlessness, was Eleazar, I think it was Nero. The problem that Nero never "sets himself up in the temple as God" is solved by the images on the coin issue and the guessed intention of Nero, following in the footsteps of Caligula, intending to set up a statue of himself in the temple, or even personally visit the temple so he could fulfill the ancient prophecy that out of this region would come one who would rule the world.
Ed's reasoning here for the man of sin - man of lawlessness, is: 'As Yosippon indicates (Sefer Yosippon, Chapters 72, 75), Eleazar was the one who literally “sat in the temple” controlling all the affairs of the temple, priesthood, and sacrifices, and used the Temple as his fortress during nearly the entire war, beginning in April AD 66, until just before Titus began the siege in AD 70 (about three and a half years).
Others have suggested John of Gischala as the Man of Lawlessness, or even the Abomination of Desolation (Abomination that causes desolation) even though he did not get control of the temple until right near the end of the war, after most of the abominations had already been committed in the temple. And his timing is wrong (spring of 70) for Daniel 12:11. And it makes Matthew 24:15 & 16 nonsensical. This warning "let them who are in Judea, flee to the mountains" comes way too late, by the spring of 70 AD. Also, there was no opportunity to flee Jerusalem at this time. The gates were securely guarded by Simons army at this time.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Note: the "daily" sacrifice for the Gentiles was abolished by this same Eleazar in 66 AD.
Ed falls for the Dispensationalist mis interpretation of Rev 17:12-17 that Jerusalem had a "large maritime commerce". Note: Jerusalem was 15 miles away from the Dead Sea which went nowhere, no maritime commerce, and 30 miles from the Med Sea which had a ton of commerce. Thus Jerusalem could have had NO maritime commerce. Rather Rev is talking about the great whore, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: the woman that sits on many waters, is Judaism. The waters are different nations and peoples. Many Jews back in the first century were merchants who traded in goods carried over the seas by gentile sailors on ships financed by Jews, or carried cargo financed and traded by Jews. Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. This is just like today. If you could magically make all "Talmudic Jews" disappear from planet earth today, there would be a huge lament arise from all our politicians (in their pay), and from weapons manufacturers, and from the porn addicts, and child sex traffickers, and from Hollywood (virtually all movie studios would close down), and all main stream media would disappear. Ed takes a much too literal interpretation of Rev 17 if he thinks it is talking about the physical city of Jerusalem.
Ed is no replacement theologian. He says he "is grateful to modern day "Jews" because it was "through them that the Gentile world has received redemption, "for salvation is from the Jews" John 4:22." He says this on page 45 of his book WHAT HAPPENED IN 70 AD:
"The author (Ed Stevens) wishes to reassure the Jewish people that he does not cast guilt upon modern Jews for what some of their first-century ancestors might have done. The author has no anti-Semitic bias against the Jewish people at all, but rather a fond appreciation for the rich heritage they have given all mankind (especially to Christians), and a sympathetic understanding of the unspeakable anguish they have suffered throughout history. The world has much to learn from their history and religion, and much to thank them for. Apostle Paul stated that Israel was "beloved for the sake of the fathers" of our faith, and "enemies" only because of their rejection of the gospel and persecution of Christians. It was the Jews who were ... entrusted with the oracles of God. As Jesus said, every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old Matt 13:52. comment: at least Ed Stevens has the courage to say a paragraph later "The modern physical land of Israel is not "the true spiritual promised land, " nor are the modern fleshly descendants of Abraham the true "Chosen People." What Ed doesn't know is that that last statement of his, alone, is enough to get him killed by the modern day Talmudists, the so called "Jews" or the FAKE Jews, as I like to call them, aka "the synagogue of satan" which is What our Lord called them.
I could write an entire 100 page article refuting point by point all of Eds statements RE the "Jewish" people above. I wont do that here, but will include a few quotes from the "Jewish" Talmud their holy book (they ignore the Torah (First 5 books of the O.T. except when it serves their purpose).
Here are some quotes from the Talmud, which is the Jewish "Bible".
All children of the goyim are animals Yebamoth 98a
note, all non-Jews are goyim, i.e. gentiles. Their slur word for the gentile is "goy"
If you eat with a goy, it is the same as eating with a dog - Tospoth, Jebamoth 84b
The gentiles are not humans. They are beasts - Baba Mezia 114b
Even the best of the goyim should all be killed Soferim 15
Do not save Goyim in danger of death, show no mercy to the goyim Hikkoth AkumXI
Extermination of the Christians is a necessary sacrifice Zohar, Shemothj
Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the jew day and night - Midrash Talpioth p 225-L
To communicate anything to a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to killing all of the Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly - Libbre David 37
A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do. He may treat her as he treats a piece of meat - Hadarine, 20 B; Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348
A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl - Gad. Shas. 2:2
A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them - Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17
In Talmud Sanhedrin 52b it describes the right of the pharisee to kill anyone, just as long as he did so indirectly.
The Talmud provides generous loop holes for adultery, it says the penalty for adultery does not include sex with a minor, the wife of a minor, or the wife of a heathen. The Talmud also encourages seduction of Adolescent Girls called designated bond-maids. But it is important how such rapes are performed. With the designated bond-maid, one is guilty only in the case of natural connection (normal sex), but not in the case of perverse connection (kinky sex). Talmud, Kerithoth 11a The pharisees reasoned that rape in a perverted manner is outside the jurisdiction of the law (i.e. not normal rape). Normal rape, however was punishable.
So vile was the nature of a Gentile, that the Great Simeon Ben Yohi said "The best among the Gentiles deserves to be killed"
The Zohar calls Gentiles Amalekites, Zohar, Bereshith 25b "They caused the destruction of the temple, so when God reveals Himself they will be wiped off the earth. Redemption will not be completed until Amalek will be exterminated.
Ed is what is known as a "full" preterist, or a "consistent" preterist, or to some a "hyper" preterist.
Because he believes that virtually EVERYTHING ended in 70 AD, the millennium, the Great White Throne Judgment, the marriage supper of the Lamb, beast and false prophet in Revelation thrown into hell, etc. I dont. But I believe, unlike Ed, that some things prophesied in the Bible are still in our future, Not ALL has happened in our past, thus I am a "partial" preterist. But I am with him on the fact that the Rapture happened in 65-66, soon coming of Jesus in wrath happened 66 thru 70 AD, that Rev was written in 62, and on his dates for the writing of the NT books, etc. Thus Ed is a "full" preterist.
I am just a partial preterist. Other partial preterists include Ken Gentry, Marcellus Kik, Gary North, Ray Sutton, James B Jordan, Greg Bahnsen, R.J. Rushdoony (though NONE of them believe the rapture happened in 65AD, nor are any of them replacement theologians, except Dave Chilton [see Days of Vengeance p 129 "Israel has become a nation of pagans, and is about to be destroyed, exiled, and supplanted by a new nation, the Church." ]).
There are two Greek words for this "coming" of the Lord. parousia and erchomai. Parousia is used in Mt 24:3,27,37, and 39 "coming of the son of man" erchomai is used in Mt 24:30, 42, 44, 46, 50
Parousia literally means an extended visit, or a presence with someone for an extended period of time. This was the "cloud coming" of Jesus in wrath and judgment against the Talmudic Jews. The clouds by the way, are all the heavenly witnesses (seeing that we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses), , martyrs, and angels coming along for the ride (to direct Roman Soldiers to execute individual Talmudic Jews [sub consciously of course, not via whispering in their ear or by audible voice], or these heavenly soldiers, saints that had been martyred back on earth, and angels would give Talmudic Jews heart attacks "mens’ hearts failing them for fear, etc or cause one Jew to slaughter another via the gang warfare going on in Jerusalem after the Jewish rebellion against Rome in 66AD"). You are allowed to fight for God from up in heaven, after you die, (how do you think this was fulfilled? Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. and Matthew 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.?
Judging most often in the Bible means avenging, or executing a sentence. When do you think was the primary time that the saints would "bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked" per Psalm 58:10 Josephus says in WARS-B5-C1-ppg-3-page-547 that the blood from the gang warfare inside the city (not from the Romans) "the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses (soldiers, as well as worshipers in the temple from the darts being thrown over the walls) stood in lakes in the holy courts".
Wars Book6 Chap8 Sect. 5 page 587 "But when they went in numbers into the lanes of the city with their swords drawn, they slew those whom they overtook without mercy, and set fire to the houses whither the Jews were fled, and burnt every soul in them, and laid waste a great many of the rest; and when they were come to the houses to plunder them, they found in them entire families of dead men, and the upper rooms full of dead corpses, that is of such as died by the famine; they then stood in a horror at this sight, and went out without touching any thing. But although they had this commiseration for such as were destroyed in that manner, yet had they not the same for those that were still alive, but they ran every one through whom they met with, and obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood, to such a degree indeed that the fire of many of the houses was quenched with these men’s blood.
So you see, there is much more to do in heaven than play harps and sing Gods praises, and chew the fat w. the saints of old. You get to be a "watcher" and even fight for Jesus, even though you have "entered into His rest") but it has to be by subtle means, no violating the veil, the wall of faith. And it can only be with His permission, and in His timing.
I believe we are in the millennium now (early 1% of its time) and that most of the millennium is ahead of us. That also in our future; 100k years or so from now, at the end of the millennium, is the Great White Throne Judgment (unless it repeats with every generation), the marriage supper of the Lamb (unless it repeats with every generation), I believe that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church, but that wont be evident till towards the end of the millennium, when the leaven (of Christianity) has leavened the whole lump of humanity, Matt 13:33. Then the lion will lay down with the lamb, the child will play by the adders hole, and men will beat their swords into plow shares and study war no more. But since we are at the start of the millennium now, you should expect life to look a lot like the great Trib. Americans arent suffering tribulation yet (2025) because we are in bed with the devil (Zionists and Talmudists). We give false Israel EVERYTHING she wants. When Israel says "Jump" our politicians (bought and paid for or blackmailed by the Mossad) say "how high"? But the rest of the world has more persecution than we, especially in Gaza (Palestine), Christians in some Muslim countries, house church Christians in Communist China, African Christians, etc.
Therefore, you can assume that American Christians will be those "lightly esteemed" for all eternity in heaven. Our country was "the great satan" which corrupted the whole earth, ($billions in COVID relief funds given away to foreign countries if they would just play along with the pandemic, and oh by the way, please fly the LGBTQ rainbow flag, as we do at EVERY US embassy) and we American Christians were out boating, going to sporting events, having barbecues, going on cruises, and lining our basements and garages with big screen TVs. Since the Saints differ from each other as "star differs from star in glory" and nearness to Gods throne means more glory for you, then in heaven the American Christians will be the ones way out on the outer edges of the perhiphery of the universe, they will need a telescope to even see the throne of God, and their bright light wont exceed that of a pen light, in heaven. Their mansions of glory will be pup tents. Few to none will ever wear the martyrs crown.
Ed thinks the millennium, aka Kingdom of God age, ended in 70 AD, I believe in at least a 100,000 year long millennium, based on the 2nd commandment and Psalm 105:8, a generation in the Bible is 40 years, thousands = at least 2, so 2000 x 40 = God has to show mercy to at least 80,000 years of earth history. And since I am a young earther (the earth is only 6k years old) that leaves some 72k years to burn thru yet, and please dont try to tell me that we are in the LAST DAYS, or END TIMES now. That plainly was in 30 AD per Hebrews 9:26, It CANNOT go on for 2k years.
Ed Stevens says on page 25 of WHAT HAPPENED IN 70 AD The Neronic persecution began in the Summer of 64 and was cut short by the outbreak of the Jewish rebellion in the Spring of 66.
I believe (like Ed does that the Neronic persection was part of the Great Trib of the Christians [not of the Talmudic Jews, they had their own separate one, overlapping this one]). But I believe (contrary to Ed) that the cutting short of the Great Trib, was the rapture, not the outbreak of the Jewish rebellion in the spring of 66. Eds logic is flawed here. He thinks the Talmudic Jews after 66 would have been so busy prepping for the coming Roman war, that they would have slacked off persecuting the Christians. I believe just the opposite. Once the Roman Restraint on the Talmudic Jews had been taken out of the way, they would have killed Christians on site, whenever and wherever they found them. The death of James the Just is a good example. In AD 62 when Festus died and Ananus II was installed as high priest. The Talmudic Jews were without a Roman governor for 3 months. Ananus II took advantage of this opportunity to arrest "James and some of his companions"
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now with comments inserted.
I differ from this. I say the rapture fulfilled Dan 9:27, and that the sacrifice and the oblation being stopped was the ongoing, continual (not daily) sacrifices of Christians getting martyered during the first half of the Great Trib.
Now let us look at what Daniel has to say about the Rapture.
First let us look at the context, since there are no chapter divisions in the original Hebrew source doc, and Angels do not stop speaking and begin speaking in chapter divisions. We should act as if the chapter 12 chapter division isn't there. Who are "thy people" per Gabriel to Daniel in
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,...
Daniel 10:14 (angel Gabriel) Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
Daniel 11:14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the
south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.
Does it sound like "thy people" are the Christians? the elect? the God Fear'ers of the Old Testament (i.e. the equivalent of born again Christians today) or are "thy people" just the ethnic, national Jews, some of whom were Godly and some of whom were evil, as with any ethnicity or nation, composed of both good and bad people. Answer: Gabriel when he says "thy people" can sometimes be talking about Jews, and sometimes he is talking about Christians. And it can switch in the same verse, e.g. Dan 12:1. You have to weigh it theologically and historically first, then look at the context, and lastly the grammer. Here in Daniel 11, Gabriel is talking about the ethnic, national Jews. So this carries over into
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children (Christians) of thy people (the Jews).
Why say "children of thy people"? Doesn't everyone know that the Jews were going to have kids, down thru the ages and whatever happened to the Jews in 70 AD would be to the "children of thy people (the Jews back in Daniels day)"? It is an un-necessary qualification to say "the children of thy people". Stupid Gabriel. We all know they had to have "children" in order for the race to continue. But what if Gabriel was trying to communicate a theological idea, instead. That's why he said what he said. He could have just said "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for (thy people)"
if he meant that Michael would stand up for the Talmudic Jews.
But who are "the children of thy people" that God has so famously stood up for in the past? The Joshua generation of Jews who DID get to enter the land, after the Moses generation got blocked, and until all died off in the wilderness Hebrews 3:16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter His rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. As I have sworn in my wrath, they shall not enter my rest.
Numbers 14:30 Surely none of you will enter the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. 31 But I will bring your children, whom you said would become (a prey to the Cananites), into the land you have rejected—and they will enjoy it. 32 As for you, however, your bodies will fall in this wilderness. 33 Your children will be shepherds in the wilderness for forty years, and they will suffer for your unfaithfulness until the last of your bodies lies in the wilderness. 34 In keeping with the forty days you spied out the land, you shall bear your guilt forty years—a year for each day—and you will experience My alienation.
(other trannys say: know my rejection, displeasure, revenge, my breach of promise.) Yet God considers there to be no breach of promise on His part. Only on the Talmudic Jews part. After Joshua had conquered most of the land of Canaan we read Joshua 21:43-45 So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.
This means God considered Himself faithful to the covenant by giving the children what was promised to the parents. It is the great REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY principle. All that God promised to the Jews, if He gives it to the Christians (their spiritual children) He counts it as having been given to the parents (the Jews, as promised). That is why Gabriel here says "standeth for the children of thy people",
i.e. the spiritual "children of thy people". Michael is only standing up for the Christians, NOT the Talmudic Jews who are headed for wrath.
Just as a side note. The Land of Palestine (or Canaan originally) was a gift to Israel, on a scholarship basis. Keep your grades up (your obedience to the covenant, up) and you get to keep the scholarship from year to year. But if you let your grades slip, (your obedience slip), you will get kicked out of the land, and lose your scholarship. God was gracious (at least) 4 more times governmentally and once physically when He let the Jews back into the land under Cyrus. When God saw that the Jews could not govern themselves without Him destroying them (Moses generation (1445 BC), and Israel from Solomon down to King Zedekiah 586 BC mostly all bad kings) Deut 17:14 When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, “Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us,” 15you are to appoint over yourselves the king whom the LORD your God shall choose.Hosea 8:4 “They set up kings, but not by Me; They made princes, but I did not acknowledge them. From their silver and gold They made idols for themselves— That they might be cut off
. He set empires over them to maintain discipline, to parent them, to minimize their wickedness, and to show them that given His miracles (i.e. with His help, like Nebuchadnezzar's dream explained by Daniel, Daniel in the Lions den, Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego in the firey furnace, etc.), they could eventually take over these empires. They were meant to be the head, not the tail of nations, if they would just obey and stay faithful to Him. Had God not done this, (set empires over them to maintain discipline, to parent them, to minimize their wickedness) the Jews would have been consumed, for their continued UN-FAITHFULNESS to the covenant, and poor performance as PRIESTS TO THE NATIONS. per Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Therefore God returned them to the land. And to help to preserve them there, He deprived them of self govt. so that their sins were minimized and they had the best chance of staying on the land, all the while showing them how they can also influence the whole empire (their original calling). Briefly under the Macabees they had self rule for a while, but they soon screwed that up, and had to invite the Romans in to govern them.
Thus, shed no tears for the Jews, when you see Hollywoods Bible movies of today depicting life under the Romans as cruel and in-humane. Movies like Ben Hur where Charlton Heston complains bitterly about Roman rule over Judea. When the Jews abandoned their God, then these empires did become chasteners of the Jews, and the Jews got the heavy handed treatment by each empire.
So now, for the rest of Daniel 12, we have to be careful about which group (Talmudic Jews or Christians) the prophecy pertains to. Sometimes "thy people" will change without warning to one group or the other, which two groups by the time of the first century (when these prophecies are being fulfilled) are the very opposite of each other. One is good, the other evil. One embraces Jesus as the messiah and son of God, the other rejects Him, has become a synagogue of Satan, and is seeking to Kill Him (Matthew 21:33), Philippians 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision (false circumcision). 3:3 For we
(Christians) are the (true) circumcision, which worship God in the spirit
(not at the temple), and rejoice in Christ Jesus
(not hate Him as a deceiver and false messiah like the Talmudic Jews do, even down to this day), and have no confidence in the flesh
(bloodline, i.e. dont claim to be physical descendants of Abraham).
Daniel 12:1 (continued) and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time
Trouble for the Jews and Trouble for the "holy nation, the royal priesthood, the people set apart, i.e. the Christians.
Daniel 12:1 and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
(by the Rapture, delivered from persecution). Note: as stated earlier: The Jews never got "delivered", saved out of anything between 63 and 70 AD, unless you count Cestius retreat from Jerusalem on Oct 27th 66AD as getting "saved out of Jacobs Trouble". Problem with that is, it led to much more serious problems for the Jews. Now Vespasian would come with twice as many men, in 67AD, and in the mean time the whole country had to prep for war against the Romans, that means pile up supplies, weapons, train, and establish rank and command and control. Of which, Josephus now a general in the rebel forces, was against-his-will, recruited.
If the Jews had surrendered to Cestius in 66AD and come back under Roman rule, (which is what the Saducees, and wiser Pharisees like Josephus wanted to do) they would have avoided the destruction of their city and temple. It might have cost them all the gold in the temple, (to placate Florus, or some new procurator), or they might have been able to petition Nero to send someone better than Florus, as the new Roman Procurator. Not likely since Neros plan was to raid all the temples in the empire of their gold, for his Golden House in Rome. But perhaps they could have outlasted Nero who died June 8th of 68, just a year and a half later. But God knew it was time to bring it all down and end that covenant and avenge the death of His beloved son. So Cestius retreat in 66 rather than being a "deliverance" in the long run, acted like "false hope" or "strong delusion" sent by the almighty. Cestius, cannot be counted as a Daniel 12:1 "deliverance of thy people" i.e. the Talmudic Jews.
Continuing on w. Daniel 12:1 answering the question of who is going to get delivered: every one that shall be found written in the book.
This must be the book of life. If it is some other book, then what book would that be? The book of all Jews who fled Jerusalem just in time? That begs the question of how many books are there. The fact that there are multiple books is clear. Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
The only book mentioned in Scripture in which peoples names are written or who are said to be "found in the book" is the book of life. So this is the book of all Christians at this slice of time in history. Now the book of life as portrayed by Scripture is just the universal church roll at this snapshot in time. It is NOT the book of all the elect. Because your name can be taken out of the book of life. So this book contains true and false Christians in its pages. On your last day on earth, your name will be in the Book of Life, if you were elect.
On the last day of earth history (if there ever is one, this is controversial among preterists. For example Ed Stevens believes the Earth stands forever and humankind goes on forever, (of His Kingdom there shall be no end)
and great white throne judgment happened back in the first century. I disagree on humans continuing to be born on earth FOREVER, based on 1 Cor 15:22-26. Though it is possible that each generation gets judged in its own great white thrown judgment, Matt 12:41 and has its own marriage supper of the Lamb (otherwise gonna be a mighty long table w. trillions of eaters, who wont even be able to see Jesus at the head table). But if there is a last day, then on that day, the book of life will be composed ONLY of the elect, after all the false Christians get their name blotted out of the book of life. But at this snapshot in time, today, (March 9, 2025, for example) the Book of Life being the universal church roll (some elect who would get saved, thus are not yet in the book of Life, names get put in and taken off all the time) contains both true and false believers).
So Daniel 12:1 answers the question of who is going to get delivered: it has to be the Christians. That deliverance, I maintain was the Rapture. Ed Stevens says "that deliverance" was the the Jewish revolt in 66AD which Ed says kept the Jews and Romans so busy prepping to fight each other they didn't have time to persecute the Christians any more, (see page 161 Final_Decade-Stevens.pdf order off preterist.org web site). Ed thinks the rapture was the June of 66 AD event in the temple where a multitude of supernatural voices were heard saying "let us remove hence".
I have to disagree with that, for a few reasons.
1) Since the rapture happened mid way thru the Great Trib or 3.5 years into a 7 year long Great Trib of the Saints, it makes the Great Trib have to start in January of 63AD. Too late for the Book of Rev written in 62 where John claimed he was in the great Trib already. And too late to include James the Just, brother of Jesus being martyred by the Jews in 62 AD.
2) "Let us remove hence" merely sounds like another shekinah glory appearance from the temple similar to 2 Chronicles 5:13,14 or an invisible version of Ezekiel 10:15-19 and Ezekiel 11:22-23, where Ezekiel saw the Glory-Cloud depart from the Temple and travel east, to the Mount of Olives.
Dave Chilton in Days of Vengeance, page 552, 553 quotes Ernest Martin who comments: "This departure of the Deity from the Temple at Pentecost of A.D. 66 was exactly 36 years (to the very day) after the Holy Spirit was first given in power to the apostles and the others at the first Christian Pentecost recorded in Acts 2. And now, on the same Pentecost day, the witness was given that God himself was abandoning the Temple at Jerusalem. This meant that the Temple was no longer a holy sanctuary and that the building was no more sacred than any other secular building.
I, Francis Kuhlman would even say based on past performance of 586 BC the temple was WORSE than any other secular building, see Jeremiah 32:34 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.
and see Ezekiel 5:8-11 and Ezekiel 8:6-18, and lastly based on Matthew 12:43-45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
By the way, so shall it be with any rebuilt Jewish temple here in 2025, which sacrifices animals and makes a mockery of Christs once for all perfect sacrifice. Stupid Dispensational Christians donating millions of dollars to help rebuild the 3rd Temple. But continuing on w. Martins quote:
"Remarkably, even Jewish records show that the Jews had come to recognize that the Shekinah glory of God left the Temple at this time and remained over the Mount of Olives for 3-1/2 years. During this period a voice was heard to come from the region of the Mount of Olives asking the Jews to repent of their doings (Midrash Lam. 2:11). This has an interesting bearing on the history of Christianity because we now know that Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected from the dead on the Mount of Olives." See Ernest L. Martin, The Place of Christ's Crucifixion: Its Discovery and Significance (Pasadena, CA: Foundation for Biblical Research, 1984).
"The Jewish reference also states that the Jews failed to heed this warning from the Shekinah glory (which they called a Bet Kol-the voice of God), and that it left the earth and retreated back to heaven just before the final seige of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70."
" ... From Pentecost A.D. 66, no thinking person among
the Christians, who respected these obvious miraculous signs
associated with the Temple, could believe that the structure was
any longer a holy sanctuary of God. Josephus himself summed
up the conviction of many people who came to believe that God
'had turned away even from his sanctuary' (Wars, Book 2 page 539), that the Temple was 'no more the dwelling place of God' (Wars, V.l9),
because 'the Deity has fled from the holy places' (Wars, V.412)."
16. Ernest L. Martin, The Original Bible Restored (Pasadena, CA: Foundation for Biblical Research, 1984), pp. 157f. For more on the temple, its history, significance and destruction, see the-idol-called-the-temple.html of this web page CCnow.US
This temple-hearing-voices experience, though of tremendous significance to the Jews, is much different than the Christian Rapture, contrary to Ed Stevens. And it cannot be compared to Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming
(Rapture) of
(by) the Son of man be.
It does not appear to be a worldwide (Oukenmene, Roman known world) snatching-away event of all Christians.
Now, continuing on with the 4 reasons why I disagree with Ed Stevens on when the rapture happened.
3. Christians dont initiate the rapture, Jesus does. Christians cannot get together and agree and say "let us remove hence" and force Christ and His angels to "swing low, sweet chariot, coming for to take-a me home" i.e start the Rapture. We cannot call the heavenly taxis (gather them together and force them to give us a ride), rather they call us per: Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
If we got to initiate the Rapture by saying "let us remove hence" then, what of this verse: Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
also, do we get to choose the day and the hour contrary to: Mt 24:36-47 Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
If we got to initiate the rapture by saying "let us remove hence" then we would know when we were going to be taken. Everyone knew and saw and understood the coming of the Lord in wrath and judgment against the Jews from 66 to 70 AD. A very slow predictible painful process, not at all fulfilling Mt 24:36. So in summary Matt 24:36 must be talking about the Rapture.
Rather Jesus initiates the Rapture, and there is nothing Christians can do about it. "for the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout ..." 1 Thess 4:16.
4. These were demon possessed (Matt 12:43-45) mad insane Jews here in 66AD Jerusalem. These Zealots, and Siccari with their knives terrorized their own people (Wars WARS-B5-C10 p. 564, 565) during the siege, burned up their own supply of corn, killed anyone suspect of being a Romanizer. They hated Christians, and when the Roman restraint of a procurator and Cestius army in nearby Syria, was thrown off, their true selves would manifest. They would go on a murderous spree of killing Christians, not "be too busy prepping for Roman war" to mess with Christians as Ed Stevens suggests. Giving the persecution a reprieve. So Daniel 12:1 "delivered" has to be the Rapture, not the Jewish Roman war, contrary to Ed Stevens.
WARS-B5-C1-ppg-1-page-547.
So, let us assume that Daniel 12:1 is talking about both tribulations Jewish and Christian, but that only the Christians get delivered, and that deliverence was by the rapture. Matthew 24:21-24 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh (NAS says “life”) be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Rapture 3
From Daniel 12:2 to Daniel 12:4 The angel switches time periods. In 12:1 he is talking about the decade of the 60's' but from 12:2 on to 12:4, the angel is talking about the whole Apostolic Church age. i.e. from 30 AD to 70 AD, i.e. the end times per Peters speech in the temple on pentecost. For proof of the fact that we are not in the last days now, in the year 2025 not in the end times, (which were the last days or end times of the old covenant age, old testament age, which ended in 70 AD) either look up these verses yourself:
Acts 2:15-20; 1st Peter 04:07; Haggai 2:6; Daniel 8 all, but especially 8:10 it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 the daily sacrifice was taken away 14 time, times and half a time 17 at the time of the end shall be the vision. 19 I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 23 Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, Jam 05:01 Hebrews 1:1 I Peter 1:20 Hebrews 9:26 Matthew 24:3 Matthew 28:20
Or
For a proper interpretation of all these verses and how they apply to us today, go to www.CCnow.US and buy the commentary end-times-or-millennium.html
That then completes this days vision with the angel for Daniel.
Daniel 12:5 starts a whole new session or vision, which I believe even happens on a different day. Just as in Revelation when John says: "and I saw", it frequently starts a whole new session or vision, which I believe even happens on a different day in Johns life while exiled on Patmos. That new vision may have reset what time in history the Angel is talking about too. Revs visions are far from chronological in their meaning of history.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Here the Angel switches over to the topic of what is going to happen to all these people, after they die. Sure, Daniel, it will be a period of Great Tribulation for both of thy people (Jews and Christians) but dont worry, there is justice in the afterlife, and here is what their future will be. This verse alone should have convinced the Saducees that there was an afterlife, and that the pharisees were correct. So the Saducees got around this problem by claiming that only the torah, the first 5 books of the O.T. were authorative. Remember the Apostle Paul, when he wanted to create a division among the Sanhedren at his trial, said:
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. 23:9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God. 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
Continuing on with the angel having switched time periods in history from the time of the great trib, to the whole apostolic church age: Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Comment: The angel is probably talking about the Apostles here, a word that would be foreign to Daniel, Apostolic authority, so the Angel just calls them "they that be wise".
wise to what? Wise like Confucius? Wise about the stock market? How to prosper and make money, like the world thinks of as wise? No, wise as in having a relationship with the Lord, salvation knowledge wise, and wise about the end times and wise about the soon coming day of the Lord.
Virtually all the apostles believed they were in the end times (end of the Jewish Age) and wise as to the fact that Jesus was coming back soon, within their lifetimes in wrath and judgment upon the Talmudic Jews even per John the Baptist "the axe is already laid at the foot of the trees Luke 3:9
and wise as to Luke 3:7 "" O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
and wise as to Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
The mountains here are the great men in society, the high up, i.e. the pharisees, the Sanhedrin, the Saducees, Herod and his men, etc. Consider Ezekiel 6:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, set thy face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them, 3 And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. 4 And your altars shall be desolate, and your images shall be broken: and I will cast down your slain men before your idols. 5 And I will lay the dead carcasses of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars. 6 In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished. 7 And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
The valleys are the Samaritans, and the lower class Jews, anyone considered "commoners" the prostitutes and tax collectors and all that Jewish society rejected as "sinners" where Jesus said "I came to call not the righteous, but sinners".
the crooked are the followers of the crooked Talmud, making it straight is eliminating it from the land. The rough ways are the 613 Jewish ceremonial laws which were rough to follow, that includes tithing rue and dill and cumin . These laws would be made smooth, as in nullified, no longer rough to follow, since they are done away.
Thus I differ from Ken Gentry (and Ed Stevens and Jim Jordan, all are preterists like me). Ken says in THE BOOK OF REVELATION MADE EASY on pages 93-95 that the mountains made low and valleys filled in, and rough places made smooth are Vespasian and Titus commanding their men to level the fields around Jotapata and Jerusalem so their armies could attack with greater ease. see Wars page 551 the Romans did actually do some minor land leveling. Ken is taking this verse too literal here, and no literal "mountains" got leveled, by the way, not even any hills. Roman technology was simply not capable of doing that in the first century. Even today, imagine one of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado. To level it would take tons of dynamite, back hoes and cranes to dig out the rock, and lots of diesel 10 ton dump trucks lined up to haul all the dirt away, and several months.
So too, when you read that "and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands"
you should think "people" not literal trees. Remember what God said of Ashur (Assyria) Ezekiel 31:3 Behold, Asshur was like a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with thick shadowing boughs, and shot up very high, and his top was among the thick boughs. Ezekiel 31:5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches were long, because of the multitude of the waters, which the deep sent out. 6 All the fowls of the heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all mighty nations.
Often times in Gods imagery, trees, mountains, valleys, symbolize people or nations. So too, here with John the Baptist (one of the wise, per Daniel 12) where John the Baptist says in prophecy Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; ... "the axe is already laid at the foot of the trees".
Note trees plural. I.E. men. As in Sanhedren, and all pharisees, saducees, priests, etc. whom Jesus would chop down in 70 AD.
Ken Gentry says in THE BEAST OF REVELATION page 188: "Regarding the date of Revelation, when even liberals are turning to reconsider the fallacy of the late date (e.g., C. C. Torrey, John A. T. Robinson, Rudolf Bultmann) and opting for the early date, orthodox Christians should take notice. Revelation was written after the initial outbreak of the Tribulation, for John was already enmeshed in it (Rev. 1:9). The Tribulation began with the Beast’s “war against the saints” (Rev. 13), which started with the Neronic persecution in November, A.D. 64. [ note, I disagree, the trib started w. the death of James 62AD. Getting persecuted to death by the Jews counts as a Great Trib, it doesn't have to be Roman persecution only]. Gentry says: Revelation anticipates the destruction of the Temple (August, A.D. 70) in Chapter 11, the death of Nero (June, A.D. 68) in Chapter 13, and the formal imperial engagement of the Jewish War (Spring, A.D. 67) in Chapters 6-7. Hence, Revelation was written sometime between November, A.D. 64 and Spring, A.D. 67 — probably in A.D. 65. Comment: I disagree. This would push the end of the 7 year great Trib beyond 70 AD, per Daniels 70th week, simply an impossibility. Ken has not taken into account all verses RE the Great Tribulation. Ken is pretty good on the book of Revelation, get all his mp3s downloadable from mp3.com. However, Ken is no replacement theologian, he thinks the Jews have a continuing covenant with God even down to today, and he sides with the Dispys when it comes to the Last Days. He thinks we are in the Last Days today. So he has a faulty concept of the millennium, too. This is a well respected seminary prof. with lots of Reformed students hanging on his every word. No wonder our churches are in such trouble today. Even the profs teach a continuing covenant with Israel! And they dont know what age we are currently in, Millennium or Last Days/End Times.
James B Jordan in his COMMENTARY ON REVELATION (another of my favorite preterist scholars) says on page 199 "Regarding the date of Revelation, it was written in AD 62. I agree there, but not on JJ's Daniel 9 and 12 exposition. JJ also is unwilling to take a stand on Replacement Theology.
But continuing on with Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:
Comment: The time of the end, or famous "end times" of Tim LaHaye or "last days" were upon them at the time of the birth of Christ (King Jesus). Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days. 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
comment: so if the last days were back when Jesus spoke to us, it had to be 0-30AD approx)
LAST-DAYS-END-TIMES 7 1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Comment: Are we in the last days today 2025? Nope, Jesus was manifested (walked the earth) back in the last days, i.e. sometime between 6BC to 33 AD, (depending on which scholar you read.)
LAST-DAYS-END-TIMES 8 Hebrews 9:26 but now once in the end of the world (aionon=age) (at the end of the ages, per NKJV, ESV, ASV) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
These last days were certainly upon the Apostolic Church, by the time of John the Baptist public preaching. Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Now, if the Kingdom is here now (in John the Baptists day), a new age has started. The old age is rapidly winding down (ending in 70 AD), soon to be obsoleted (Heb 8:13).
By 30 AD, Peter said he was in the end times on Pentecost Sunday Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out My spirit on all flesh)
The end times ended with the close of the Old Testament people, temple, sacrifices, levitical priesthood, old world creation done away, i.e. after the Romans had sacked Jerusalem, plowed its walls, killed or captured everyone of threat, and burned down the Temple. This means for a short while (from the start of Jesus public ministry, to 70 AD, there were two Ages going on concurrently, millennium [kingdom age, just starting] and last days/end times [winding down to its end in 70 AD]) i.e. the two ages over lapped.
Daniel 12:4 ... many shall run to and fro,
(Doing Evangelism! Men have always physically "run to and fro" and less so in modern times w. cars, motorcycles, bicycles, jet planes, etc. comment: Some stupid PreMill commentaries interpret this to be modern day jogging. Naturally "knowledge shall increase"
just HAS to mean computers, (according to the pre-mills, who feel that to be RELEVANT they have to mis-interpret EVERYTHING in the Bible as being spoken Directly to their congregation today. That will surely wow the congregation. Someone needs to ask these men-pleaser pastors if the ten commandments are RELEVANT? But they weren't spoken directly to your congregation were they. How then can they still be RELEVANT?
So, "this generation"
in Mt 24 just has to be "the generation that sees all these things come to pass, i.e. 2025 (fill in your current date here, gotta keep it relevant!), and not way back then in 30AD when the words were spoken. Likewise, Last Days, End Times JUST HAS TO BE OUR LAST DAYS, or it would not be RELEVANT.") So too, 2 Peter 3:10 The elements shall melt with fervent heat"
can ONLY mean nuclear war. It never occurs to them to look up the Greek meaning of "elements" to mean "elemental things"
like law for babies, 1 Corinthians 13:11 we read this: “When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.”
The Jewish ceremonial law is law for babies in the faith. Like telling little Johnny, "never cross the street without mommy holding you hand". Those "elemental things" i.e. ceremonial law, "melted with fervent heat"
when the temple was burned in 70 AD.
So this prophecy of Daniels JUST HAS TO BE FULFILLED ONLY IN OUR DAY. Futurists just gotta find something in our present to make you think Jesus is coming back in your lifetime. Get you all excited so you will buy their books and movies.
Is that profitable?
LaHaye and his millions of followers—the eleven books in his series have sold 55 million copies, and have added a new foreign policy dimension to its agenda, specifically with regard to the Middle East. According to LaHaye, the armies of the Antichrist would soon have their final battle with Christ and “witness the end of history” after a series of conflicts in the Middle East. Naturally this perverted eschatology benefits Israel, and keeps the Christians fighting all Israels enemies in the Middle East, so the clever Zionist owned American news media and Hollywood, promote Tim LaHaye's stuff. At even $10 a copy, at 55 million copies sold, someone made over half a billion dollars. Jordan calls this eschatology Christian porn. It gives you a good feeling, gets you all hot and bothered, but it is totally untrue in its facts and what it promises, and leaves you empty in the end.
Consider The Council for National Policy, a body that had attracted the who’s who of the evangelical movement circa 1981. The organization’s founding president was Dr. Tim LaHaye, author of the best-selling Left Behind series of novels, prophetic military-religious thrillers that extol the Rapture, the moment when true believers in Christ will be “raptured” into heaven. The Council for National Policy some say was to be the conservative version of the Council on Foreign Relations. The CNP was founded in 1981 and was very influential all thru the Reagan years (81-89). “Members of The Council for National Policy included Senator Jesse Helms; Congressmen Dick Armey and Tom DeLay; the Reverend Jerry Falwell; Oliver North; Phyllis Schlafly of the Eagle Forum; the Reverend Donald Wildmon of the American Family Association; the Reverend Pat Robertson of The 700 Club and the Christian Coalition; Ralph Reed of Century Strategies; and even a non futurist, but a preterist, Christian Reconstructionist Rousas John Rushdoony. (quote from HOUSE OF BUSH HOUSE OF SAUD, p 13)
In reality, this prophecy Daniel 12:4 ... many shall run to and fro,
refers to the Apostles missionary journeys and saints evangelistic efforts turning the Roman known world upside down. Phillip on the road to Ethopia, to baptize the Ethopian Eunuch way back then, say 40AD . Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
Remember Gabriel is viewing history some 530 years out. Like looking thru a telescope 500 miles away. Could you tell which objects were 540 miles out vs those only 500 miles away? No, they would look like they were side by side, at 500 miles away. So too, Gabriel feels free to jump from 60 AD (great trib) to 40 AD Pauls missionary journies, and the Ethopian eunuch within a few verses, as if they were all the same timeframe.
Daniel 12:4 ... and knowledge shall be increased.
(comment: salvation knowledge, i.e. personally knowing the Lord, not knowledge of technology [computers or AI or anything secular.] That kind of knowledge is ALWAYS, increasing. But when the Days arrive prophecied in the Old Testament of "then I will write my laws in their hearts and on their minds, and I shall be their God and they shall be My people"],
i.e. when the Holy Spirit was poured out on all men (all types, not each and every, count) New Testament Days arrive, then Salvation Knowledge [of the Lord] shall greatly increase compared to what it was in Daniels day)
Daniel 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
I believe this means other than the Angel Gabriel, there were 2 more angels who looked like men. They stood on opposite sides of the river because they represented Christianity and Judaism, the two kinds of "my people" Daniel was concerned about. I assume the man in the middle, in linen with his feet upon the water is the Angel Gabriel. (the waters signify the nations) But since he swears by the Father, he must be a good (angel).
Daniel 12:6 And one
(the angel representing Christianity, not the Jews) said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river
same symbol as the many waters of Rev 17:1, in both cases it represents multi-national peoples of the world), How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swear by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half;
note: this is your famous 3.5 years of actual suffering and tribulation that the "holy people" have to go thru, before they get raptured. The "Holy People" cant be the Talmudic Jews, who are anything but "holy" by this time in History. I.E. it has to be the Christians.
Daniel 12:7 and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Scatter what power? Christians had no political power back in 65 AD. They had no economic power, they were meeting in secret in the catacombs. They didn't even see themselves as a holy nation, a royal priesthood, a people set apart. But God did. Scatter their power to resist and hold up under persecution. Scatter their power to assemble together
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Christians were pressured to the breaking point, dying for their faith, under Nero. They were scattered (who would be willing to congregate together, lest a weaker brother rat the whole congregation out to the Romans).
Not being able to assemble together was a much BIGGER DEAL back then than it is today. The majority back then could not read, and virtually no-one had the very expensive hand copied scrolls called the Scriptures. So the ONLY way you got the word of God was to attend a meeting where
"blessed is he that readeth Revelation 1:3"
and
"how shall they hear except some one preaches, Romans 10:14".
Fruit cut off from the nourishment of the vine, quickly withers and dies, especially under persecution, when it is easy to get discouraged. Were they undergoing persecution at this time?
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Matt 24: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Luke 12:52 From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” Matthew 24:12
Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. Consider also that the Christians scattered from Jerusalem and Judea escaped to Pella in 62 AD.
Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, Oh my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Comment: Is Daniel stupid? Dense? Slow to understand? Hasnt the angel already explained what will happen to the Christians after all these things (verses 1 thru 5) happen. NO, Daniel is not stupid or dense. He is thinking, "OK" that is what happens to the holy, but what about my OTHER people, the Jews. What about our nation, which I have been praying for, confessing our sins of in Daniel 9. Like Paul in Romans 9, who said "I could wish myself accursed for the sake of my people
(if it would save my people)" like Jonah who didn't want to go to Nineveh, for patriotic reasons, 'Daniel too is overly patriotic. He is demanding, "come on now, Gabriel. What about the Jews?" If Daniel had not asked the angel this question, the other man on the other side of the river would have, because he represents the Jews, not the Christians. But Gabriel doesn't want to share the bad news to Daniel, about the Jews, so Gabriel in a kind way, puts Daniel off and says:
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, Oh my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Comment: Daniel is thinking, "OK" that is what happens to the holy, but what about my OTHER people, the Jews. What about our nation, which I have been praying for, confessing our sins of in Daniel 9. Like Paul in Romans 9, who said "I could wish myself accursed for the sake of my people (if it would save my people)" like Jonah who didn't want to go to Nineveh, for patriotic reasons, 'Daniel too is overly patriotic. He is demanding, "come on now, Gabriel. What about the Jews?" But Gabriel doesn't want to share the bad news to Daniel, about the Jews, so Gabriel in a kind way, puts Daniel off and says:
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel 12:10
Many
of the Jews, (i.e. the 144,000) shall be purified, and made white, and tried
(to death, or until they get raptured); note: the NAS says "Many will be purged, cleansed, and refined"
during the great trib, this is how Jesus "confirms the covenant with many", it is also the fulfillment of: Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.)
But continuing on with Daniel:
Daniel 12:10 but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand;
shall under stand what? That they should not be doing wickedly? Understand the meaning of life? No, those are eternal truths applicable from age to age, rather, "shall understand the parable of the fig tree (cut it down, why does it use up the ground) as alluded to in Matt 24. men who knew how to discern the times, to know what Israel should do,
who knew that HE is near, right at the door, and coming in wrath and judgment against them (the Talmudic Jews), since God sent them a strong delusion" but the wise
(Christians in 50-60-70AD, who have heard the letters of Paul and the other books of the New Testament being circulated among the first century churches) shall understand.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Note: Here we definitely are talking about Daniels other people, called the Talmudic Jews. How do we know this? Because the Christians had no such sacrifice called "the daily". What would they have been sacrificing anyway? Animals? No way. All Christians believe in the once for all time perfect sacrifice paid by Jesus (except it could be argued, the Catholics who insist on re-sacrificing Jesus on their "altar" daily or weekly by their "priests". Just cant let that old covenant go, can they, as long as there is a buck to be made [masses said for the dead, job security for priests] and titles of honor to wear, off of that old covenant. Protestants dont have "priests", we have ministers, also called "bishops" aka "elders"). So, Dan 12:11 here is talking about Daniels "other" people, also near and dear to Daniels' heart, called the Jews. And Daniel is going to pump Gabriel for as much information about them as he can, while Gabriel will remain reluctant to tell Daniel about the failure of his people the Talmudic Jews, so Gabriel frequently will say "Go thy way Daniel ... that info is sealed up till the end").
So what shall we do with Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
This length of time 1290 days is just 12 days longer than a time, times and half a time, or 3 and one half years = 1278 days.
There are two times in history according to Josephus when the Zealots (in control of the Temple) stopped the Daily Sacrifice for all the nations. The first time it was at the command of the captain of the Temple, Eleazar who is the Abomination that causes desolation. The first time was in August of 66 – out of anger against Florus the Roman Procurator who had just extorted 17 talents of gold from the temple, and who had just killed 3,600 Jews in Jerusalem with his Roman soldiers, and was now marching on the temple with 3 cohorts of Roman Soldiers (a cohort is 480 men). Eleazar blew the shofar and alerted the citizenry to block all the streets and alleys with their carts to prevent the Temple from getting raided. Floris, not ready to take on Jerusalems over 3 million citizens (as it swelled to during passover) with his 1.5k men and try to assault the high temple walls without siege engines and being surrounded on every side, wisely decided to withdraw back to Caesaria, but he left a cohort in Jerusalem to keep the peace, and petitioned the nearest General of the nearest legion (5000 men) which happened to be Cestius in Syria to bring Jerusalem back into submission.
This provocation by Florus happened right around the time of Passover. Josephus says the killing of the 3600 citizens and residents of Jerusalem occurred on the 16th day of Artemisius [Wars 2:315 (2.15.2)], I assume this would correspond approximately to our May 1 see Josephus page 485-6 B2-C15-S2.
5. ... but his (Florus) attempt (to break into the temple and get at the gold) failed, for the people immediately turned back upon him, and stopped the violence of his (3 cohorts, i.e. 1500 men) attempt; and as they stood upon the tops of their houses, they threw their darts at the Romans, who, as they were sorely galled thereby, because those weapons came from above, and they were not able to make a passage through the multitude, which stopped up the narrow passages, they retired to the camp which was at the palace.
6. But for the seditious, they were afraid lest Florus should come again, and get possession of the temple, through Antonia; so they got immediately upon those cloisters of the temple that joined to Antonia, and cut them down. This cooled the avarice of Florus; for whereas he was eager to obtain the treasures of God [in the temple, ] and on that account was desirous of getting into Antonia, as soon as the cloisters were broken down he left off his attempt; WARS-B2-C15-S6 page 486
page 489 WARS-B2-C17 CHAPTER XVII HOW THE WAR OF THE JEWS WITH THE ROMANS BEGAN ; AND CONCERNING Menahem
1. This advice (of King Agrippa) the people hearkened to, and went up into the temple with the king and Bernice, and began to rebuild the cloisters: the rulers also and senators divided themselves into the villages, and collected the tributes, and soon got together forty talents, which was the sum that was deficient. And thus did Agrippa then put a stop to that war which was threatened.
note by now it was probably June of 66 by this time.
490 WARS OF THE JEWS
1. ... Moreover, he (Agrippa) attempted to persuade the multitude to obey Florus, until Caesar should send off to succeed him; but they were hereby much provoked, and cast reproaches upon the king and got him excluded out of the city; nay, some of the seditious had the impudence to throw stones at him. So when the king saw that the violence of those that were for innovations was not to be restrained, and being very angry at the contumelies he had received, he sent their rule together with their men of power, to Florus, Caesarea, that he might appoint whom he thought fit to collect the tribute in the country, while he retired into his own kingdom.
2. And at this time it was that some of them that principally excited the people to go to war made an assault upon a certain fortress call Masada. They took it by treachery, and slew the Romans that were there, and put others their own party to keep it. Note: This could be any time in May, June, July of 66
At the same time Eleazar, the son of Ananias the high priest, a very bold youth, who was at that time governor of the temple, persuaded those that officiated in the divine service to receive no gift or sacrifice for any foreigner. And this was the true beginning of our war with the Romans: for they rejected the sacrifice of Caesar on this account: and when many of the high priests and principal besought them not to omit the sacrifice, which was customary for them to offer for their prince they would not be prevailed upon. These relied much upon their multitude, for the most flourishing part of the innovators assisted them; they had the chief regard to Eleazar, the governor of the temple.
WARS-B2-C18 page 491
Agrippa sends 3,000 men upon being invited back to Jerusalem by leading citizens who decry the stoppage of the Daily and end of all votive gifts to the temple. These 3k battle the zealots and sicarii in the temple and lower city for a week, but in the end the sicarii win at the feast of wood gathering,
5. Upon this the men of power, with the high priest, as also all the part of the multitude that were desirous of peace, took courage, and seized upon the upper city [Mount Zion] for the seditious part had the lower city and the temple in their power: so they made use of stones and slings perpetually against one another, and threw darts continually on both sides! and sometimes it happened that they made excursions by troops, and fought it out hand to hand, while the seditious were superior in boldness, but the king’s soldiers in skill. These last strove chiefly to gain the temple, and to drive those out of it who profaned it; as did the seditious, with Eleazar (besides what they had already) labour to gain the upper city. Thus were their perpetual slaughters on both sides for seven days’ time; but neither side would yield up the parts they had seized upon.
6. Now the next day was the festival of Xylophory ; (celebrated on the 9th of August in 2024) upon which the custom was for every one to bring wood for the altar, (that their might never be a want of fuel for that fire which was unquenchable and always burning.) Upon that day they excluded the opposite party from the observation of this part of religion. And when they had joined to themselves many of the Sicarii, who crowded in among the weaker people, (that was the name of such robbers as had under their bosoms swords called Sice,) they grew bolder, and carried their undertakings further, insomuch that the king's soldiers were overpowered by their multitude and boldness; and so they gave way, and were driven out of the upper city by force.
So let us review.
Back in May of 66, Florus forced the Talmudic Jews to pay him 17 talents of Gold for supposed Roman Administrative expenses. Then he marched on Jerusalem from Caesarea with 1500 Roman Soldiers to steal all the gold that was in the temple. In the ensuing struggle to prevent the theft (which the Jews won), Florus slew 3600 Jews, some of whom were of Roman Equestrian Rank, yet still Jews, after having first whipped some of them and then crucified others, just five days after this the angelic armies were seen in the clouds (21st day of Artemisius, i.e. our modern day May 5th) [War 6.296 (6.5.3)].
In August of 66, Eleazar stopped the Daily Sacrifice (for peace, for the gentiles, for the emperor) and declared that no gifts from foreigners would be accepted at the temple for sacrifices, anymore.
Menahem was killed by Eleazar’s zealots in Sept 66.
Cestius Gallus beseiged Jerusalem in Nov 66 (Life 17-23).
But in the mean time from May to November:
Neapolitanus and King Agrippa II went back to Jerusalem together. Neapolitanus was welcomed by the citizens of Jerusalem who assured him that they were loyal to Rome and only upset at Florus. Then Neapolitanus left and went back to Cestius in Antioch. Agrippa stayed in Jerusalem to have more discussions with the leaders of Jerusalem who wished to send a delegation to Nero bringing accusations against Florus so that Nero would replace him with another milder procurator. Agrippa negated that idea and charged them to submit to Florus and abandon any thoughts of rebellion, and to pay the tribute money that they had failed to pay. The moderates complied with this request for the tribute money, and quickly went out to the cities of Judea and raised forty talents to pay the back taxes. [War 2.405 (2.17.1)] But they still wanted to send a delegation to Nero to get Florus replaced. Agrippa insisted that this should not be done, and that the Jewish leaders should instead submit to Florus. This did not satisfy the moderates in Jerusalem. And some of the seditious insulted Agrippa even further by throwing stones at him. [War 2.406 (2.17.1)]
Aug 66 – Agrippa left Jerusalem after failing to stop the rebellion. [War 2.407 (2.17.1)]. After his failure to dissuade the Zealots from going to war (Aug 66), King Agrippa II then went to Antioch to meet with Cestius Gallus about the worsening situation in Jerusalem (Sept 66). [War 2.481]
Aug 66 – Some of the pro-war Zealots, evidently under the leadership of Menahem (descendant of Judas the Galilean) went to Masada and overpowered the Roman garrison, and stationed their own occupational force there. They broke into the armory there and took all the weaponry back to Jerusalem with them. This seems to have occurred about the same time that Agrippa II was in Jerusalem trying to discourage a rebellion, or immediately afterwards. [War 2.408-410 (2.17.2)]
Josephus also tells us that it occurred about the same time that Eleazar b. Ananias stopped the daily sacrifices of all Gentiles, including the peace offerings from Caesar. [War 2.408-410 (2.17.2)] Final_Decade-Stevens.pdf page 227-228
The Second time the Daily Sacrifice was stopped, was in July of 70 AD under John of Gischala (who had finally defeated Eleazar who controlled the temple area) Wars Book 6, Chap 2, Section 1 (page 574) In fact not only the Daily (Tamid) sacrifice was stopped, but all sacrifices ceased because of the lack of sacrificial animals and lack of priests to offer them.[War 6.94 (6.2.1)] This is when both Josephus and Titus pleaded with the Talmudic Jews to restart the sacrifices and preserve their beautiful temple by moving the fight anywhere else, away from there. But being under the strong delusion that God would never allow His city and His temple to be taken, the Zealots who were holed up in the Temple, refused. As long as they stayed in the Temple they had the advantage of height and cover, over the Romans. But out on the open plains, the Romans with each soldier being heavily armored and with cavalry of horse available, would slaughter them. Titus had already broken through all Jerusalem City walls, so the only two options available to continue the fight against the Romans were shelter in the Temple, or leave your shelter and fight out in the open.
Why is the Abomination of Desolation and the stopping of the Daily sacrifice so important? Because Daniel 12 (estimate 510 BC) and Jesus (30 AD) in Matthew 24 speak of it. Jesus uses it as a warning of when to flee Jerusalem in 66 AD.
OK, so if you were a Jew living in Jerusalem, and you are saved, you are a believer in Jesus and 66 AD rolls around, and things are heating up all around you, and you are wishing you could fly the coop, just to stay alive. You remember what the Savior said in Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place ...
Now you have to ask yourself. What did Daniel say about the Abomination of Desolation. Well in
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Ok, you say, when was the daily sacrifice abolished, so I can count the days to the abomination of desolation getting set up. So I know when Jesus says to flee Jerusalem.
Well according to Francis the daily sacrifice we are going to use was in July of 70 AD. And we are supposed to count backwards 1290 days (12 days longer than time, times and half a time) to now December of 66 AD to know when to flee. But thats impossible for any Jew trapped in Jerusalem in 66AD to do. He cant know what is going to happen in 70 AD, since it is only 66AD right now, when he needs the info on when to flee. For that detailed info, you have to believe Jesus and His prophecy in Matt 24. You cant just be a traditional Jew believing only in the Old Testament and glean from Daniel, when exactly to flee Jerusalem, based on Daniel alone. Daniel is intentionally vague and symbolic. Just look at Daniel 11. That is so vague and cryptically worded that only after the fact can we assign empires and dates to Daniel 11.
Evidentally God doesn't want the traditional Jew to have great enough detail about Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 to obtain exact dates and events to save his hide in 66-70AD. He truly wants these to be "days of vengeance". For detailed info, you have to trust in Jesus and believe Matt 24 which no messianic Jew would read or obey. Which was given some 36 years earlier before the Abomination of Desolation got setup mid 66 AD and "established" December 66AD. So, reading Matt 24 we have to assume Jesus didnt waste His breath and write Matt 24:15-22 to come to the aid of no-one. He must have meant for SOMEONE to make sense of it, and obey, and save their lives. We have to assume there were elect Jews inside Jerusalem that saw the Abomination of Desolation get "established" and now turned to Jesus and got saved. Though too late for the Rapture, Jesus addresses these, new Christians (even though Ethnic-Racial Jews) in Matt 24:15-22.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Note: Jesus is clearly addressing Jews here, as gentile Christians around the Roman Empire getting slain by Nero's persecution, would not care about "flight on a sabbath day". Also, This applies primarily to Jews inside Jerusalem at this time 66AD, because Jews outside Jerusalem would not be able to see or know about who was "standing in the place where he/it should not be"
until word got out to the surrounding towns and villages that Eleazar had holed up in the temple with his army and was acting like a tyrant.) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Note: the only shortening of those days was the shortening by the Rapture. The Talmudic Jews had no relief ever. They finally got slaughtered in Aug of 70 AD by Titus after the Temple was burnt down and Judaism ended.
What would men do, if they did know the future? If the Bible was so detailed, that evil men could base their military strategy off of it? Would that be a good thing or not?
What do evil, greedy, murderous share-croppers do when the Masters son (rightful owner of the property) comes along to demand the Masters payments (Matt 21:33ff). They (Herod's Scribes') research the Scriptures to see what city the future ruler of My people will be born in, then they slay all the babies 2 years old and under. Thats the danger of Bible prophecy being too detailed and specific.
Consider the effect of too detailed and specific prophecy on John 7:41-44; Matthew 2:1-8 (Note: these "wise men" didn't need Bible prophecy to find the babe. In the end, they followed the star all the way to the very domicile Jesus was in. See Matt 2:9. Which makes you wonder why they even bothered to see Herod in the first place. It only caused trouble. Remember Bethlehem is just 5 miles South of Jerusalem. So if they were following a Star so low and clear and evident that it would pinpoint the very "house-stable" Jesus was in, why bother with going to Jerusalem, and risking a police escort out of there and possibly your own death by Herods soldiers accompanying you, to cover up the murder of Israels future King. That's stupid. Just act like tourists, Hide the fact that you are kings and rich, lest robbers mug you along the way, keep a low profile, sneak into Bethlehem, and sneak out and get home safely. The LAST thing you need is an audience with the local King.
So you should ask yourself, Oh Christian, why did God play His cards this way? And in-scripturate it so all future generations would know of the character of God. Calvinists know the answer. God even pre-destinated the death of these babies, Matt 2:16-18); Calvinist Answer: To show the glory of God by another fulfilled messianic prophecy, to hammer home the truth that we Christians are in a war, and need to be fighting for the kingdom using deception occasionally when we have to (like the 3 Kings did, promising, then breaking their word). And God wants to show the depravity of that evil and adulterous generation, of which the Talmudists of today are their true sons. God is even willing to sacrifice babies to glorify His name, "Psalm 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." These babies are up in heaven closer to God for all eternity, experiencing an eternity of Joy, greater than you or I will ever have.
Continuing on with the dangers of letting men know the future via too detailed and specific prophecy. Consider Acts 2:22,23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death”. 1 Corinthians 2:7,8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Luke 19:44 because thou
knewest not the time of thy visitation. Matt 13:11 why Jesus spoke to the Talmudic Jews in parables, "lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
So God has to talk in murky, symbolic, dark, hidden meanings. Look at Daniel 11. How clear would that be to the Jews going through the Persian and Greek and Roman periods. Not clear enough for them to base their actions on, but clear enough for modern (21st expositors) to see how well it matched up with history, and give God the glory. Probably these prophetic visions were a lot clearer to Daniel, who got to see the movie (vision), but how to write it down, what words to say? Those were given to him by the Holy Spirit. The vision and its meaning may have been clear (Daniel was very alarmed, by what he saw) but the words Daniel was given to record the vision were intentionally murky, symbolic, dark, and hidden.
Evidentally God doesn't want all men knowing the future in much detail, especially not His enemies (the Talmudic Jews). And all men can read Scripture. Especially the Devil who searches things far beyond what men do. Even Christians are called to live by Faith, but Jesus did give the Christians of His day much detail in Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13. Revelation is once again, a return to the dark, murky, symbolic, policy. After the fact, in hindsight we can see that Rev up to Chapter 20 was talking about First Century events. Not all Christians can see this. The pre-mills and future-ists of course, (Baptists, most fundamentalists) still cant understand Revelation even today. When we postmills and preterists raise the proper interpretation of Rev, in their faces, they usually say, "well, actually I am a pan-millennial-ist. I know it is all going to pan out in the end. I.E. Christians win. We get to go to heaven."
This is just a cop-out. They are implying "Oh lets not argue over these finer points of doctrine" and "I guess we just cant know the truth in some areas", and "cant we just agree to dis-agree" or even worse "Well none of your agruments are basic doctrine or salvation issues, so they arent important, now cant we change the subject and talk about something else". After that they leave you to talk about sports, or the weather, or family news or some such trivia. What hypocrites! We can talk about trivia, but not about eschatology, since it is not a salvation issue. Whenever you are winning the argument, the weak opponent, instead of admitting he is wrong, or confessing that he needs more study in this area, will try to evade and exit. He does this by downplaying the importance of the argument. "well, its not a necessary doctrine for salvation, so lets just drop it and stick to the basics that we can all agree on, to preserve the unity of the brethren". Now, what pleasantries can we talk about. I have experienced this same scenario time and time again. They are babies, unwilling to come to the truth. You want to stay in the ring with them and say "no my friend, this is very important, and worth examining. If you are counting on some future rapture to get you out of here, you have a false hope. If you think the beast and the anti-Christ are out there right now, that will affect your politics, i.e. why polish brass on a sinking ship".
Now William Whiston commenting on the fulfillment of Daniel 12:11 goes astray. He says" Josephus, WARS, page 574 b6-c2-s1"
* This was a very remarkable day indeed, the seventeenth of Panemus, [Tamuz,] AD 70, when, (according to Daniel’s 606 year old prediction,) the Romans ‘in half a week caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease,” Dan. ix. 27 ; for from the month of February,
AD 66, about which time Vespasian entered on this war, to this very time, was just three years and a half."
There are a couple problems w. Whistons interpretation. 1) dates wrong 2) Vespasian entering the land was the abomination that causes desolation. For a commentary on other popular writers interpretation of this passage and their errors, download WHO-WAS-THE-ABOMINATION-OF-DESOLATION. And WHEN-WAS-THE-JEWISH -GREAT-TRIBULATION.
1. Dates wrong.
I don't think Vespasian entering the land was the abomination that causes desolation. Rome was actually Gods avenging army, and the Talmudic Jews were the GREAT HARLOT of Revelation, the synagogue of Satan per Jesus. It is possible that abominable meant Abominable to the Talmudic Jews, but pleasing to God; Since the Talmudic Jews were Gods enemy at this time. These were days of vengeance upon the Talmudic Jews. So you might think Whiston could still be right about who was the Abomination that causes desolation, but, no. He is still wrong for various reasons. Download WHO-WAS-THE-ABOMINATION-OF-DESOLATION
============
Temple burned on July 25th or 9th of AV. if U run your months from 15th to 15th, calculated only, not as reported. after a 5 months siege. Feb 25th 70AD begnning of abom of desol standing where he should not be.
On Tisha B'Av, 70 CE (August 30),[8] Roman forces overwhelmed the defenders and set fire to the Temple.[9] wikipedia
===============
A couple of days later, on 14 July, prisoners told them that the priests in the Temple had been forced to interrupt the daily sacrifices, which had greatly demoralized the defenders of Jerusalem.
On the tenth of August, the Temple itself was burning. Six thousand women and children were taken prisoner at the Court of the Gentiles, while the legionaries sacrificed to their standards in the Holy of Holies.
During the next few days, the Romans destroyed the archives, the quarter immediately south of the Temple, and the building where the Sanhedrin convened. Then, they descended into the Old Town. Meanwhile, dams had been prepared to attack the palace; when Titus' men had taken it, the last defenders managed to hide themselves in the sewer system. John was among them, and was among the first to surrender. Simon remained in hiding for some time, but finally made a dramatic appearance on the place where the Temple had stood, dressed in a white priestly tunic and his royal, purple mantle. On 8 September, Titus was master of what was left of the city.
https://www.livius.org/articles/concept/roman-jewish-wars/roman-jewish-wars-4/
===============
4th month, 9th day: Fall of Jerusalem (July 18).
5th month, 7th-10th day: Burning of Jerusalem and Temple (Aug.
12-15). (Note that even by Babylonian reckoning, Jerusalem fell in
Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year.) James Jordan A PRELIMINARY COMMENTARY ON THE BOOK OF DANIEL page 573
1st Quarter:
2nd Quarter: Nebuchadnezzar 19B. Jehoiachin 12.
SY 23.
3rd Quarter:
4th month, 9th day: Fall of Jerusalem (July 18).
5th month, 7th—10th day: Burning of Jerusalem
and Temple (Aug. 12—15). (Note that even
by Babylonian reckoning, Jerusalem fell in
Nebuchadnezzar’s 19th year.) See 517 BC.7
6th month, 10th day: Desolation 7 begins.
THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL commentary on Daniel by James B. Jordan page 639
Phillip Schaff computes the dates according to the Julian calendar as from April, 70, to August 10, 70; History 1:396.
Let us use JJ's (Jim Jordans) chronology found in https://theopolisinstitute.com/chronologies-and-kings-part-13-the-end-of-the-kingdom-of-judah/
Wherefrom we can deduce:
Solomon’s Temple was finished in the year 3000A.M. (years from creation).
The destruction of the Temple (Herods Temple) in the year 4000A.M., (70AD) exactly a millennium after the first Temple was built.
Thus, the age of the Old Covenant Temple was 1000 years, and this probably is background for the statement in Revelation 20 that the reign of the saints will last 1000 years in the New Covenant,
And it would date the creation of the world in the year 3930 B.C.
so Todays date is always current year (e.g. 2024) + 3930 = 5954
============
Jordan says in Biblical Horizons Chronology paper 4-8: (August of 1992)
Earlier works delineating Old Covenant chronology have been flawed in several ways, and this is why a new attempt has been required.
1. Martin Anstey’s Romance of Bible Chronology, also published as Chronology of the Old Testament, though by far the best and most valuable (yea, indispensable) work on the subject, is marred by his use of "spiritual years" to account for the reigns of the judges, which he erroneously thinks ruled in series. Anstey is also committed to certain dispensationalistic oddities common to late-19th century evangelicals (not the province only of the followers of Darby or Scofield) (BC 2:2).
2. Philip Mauro’s Wonders of Bible Chronology is a summary of Anstey’s work, without the dispensationalism. Mauro continues to promote the idea of "spiritual years" during the period of the Judges, however (BC 2:2).
3. The work of E.W. Faulstich is interesting and challenging at some points, but Faulstich is naively committed to the notion that there have been absolutely no changes whatsoever in the rotation and revolution of the earth during the last 6000 years, an idea completely at variance with known facts. The earth-moon system does undergo slight accelerations and decelerations in motion due to tidal and other forces. Faulstich’s commitment to questionable ancient eclipse data and his reliance on computer dating methods force the data of history into a procrustean mold. Additionally, Faulstich repeatedly plays havoc with Biblical statements in order to make them square with his computer chronology and his unique and bizarre prophetic and numerological schema (BC 2:1, 5, & 7).
4. As concerns the period of the kings of Israel and Judah, Edwin R. Thiele’s Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings (various editions) has been very influential in evangelical circles, but is more a curiosity than anything else. Thiele’s system is prima facie incredible, and is tied to an erroneous interpretation of data from ancient Assyria. O.T. Allis long ago pointed out the errors here (BC 2:9, 10; 4:1, 2, & 3).
5. Finally, C.G. Ozanne’s The First 7000 Years, while containing a valuable critique of Thiele, is marred by extreme schematizing and another curious prophetic scheme (BC 2:5 & 6).
... (ppg omitted here)
The New Testament predictions that are detailed all have to do, I am convinced, with the events leading down to A.D. 70. (This includes, I believe, not only the book of Revelation but also the predictions concerning Israel in Romans 11; for more information write to Biblical Horizons , Box 1096, Niceville, FL 32488). The predictions concerning the final return of Christ are stated in very general terms.
General Findings and Tentative Positions
Since Biblical Chronology has involved me in a progressive study over three years, there are errors in earlier essays that have been corrected in later ones. The following tentative conclusions reflect my latest findings:
1. Genesis 1 must be taken as six normal days; there is no gap between Genesis 1:1 & 2; and there are no gaps in the chronology of Genesis 5. This puts the Flood in the year Anno Mundi (year of the world) 1656 (BC 2:3 & 3:6).
2. There are no gaps in the chronology of Genesis 11, and a comparison of Genesis 11:26 with Acts 7:4 puts the birth of Abram in A.M. 2008 (BC 2:4, 5, & 6).
3. Exodus 12:40-41 says that Israel was in Egypt 430 years, and a careful study of Genesis, together with Numbers 26:59 and Galatians 3:17 reveals that the Egyptian domination began with Abram’s first descent into Egypt (Genesis 12). The exodus from Egypt came in A.M. 2513 (BC 2:7).
4. 1 Kings 6:1 states that the fourth year of Solomon was the 480th year after the exodus from Egypt. In this year, A.M. 2993, the foundations of the Temple were laid. The Temple was completed seven years later, A.M. 3000 (1 Kings 6:38). If we add up the years of the judges in the book of Judges, we come up with more than 480 years, but a careful reading of Judges shows which judges ruled coterminously (BC 2:8; 3:7 & 8).
5. A careful study of the chronology of the kings of Israel and Judah yielded the following results. First, the definitive "Adamic chronology" is tied to the Temple-maintaining kings of Judah. Second, the destruction of Jerusalem came in A.M. 3425 (or thereabouts) (BC 3:9 – 4:7). Third, current Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias err in the way they attempt to reconcile Biblical chronology with the Assyrian King Lists (BC 4:1-3).
6. Daniel 9:24-27 speaks of three prophetic periods for the people of God, focusing on the coming of the last Adam (Jesus the messiah). The first, 49 years in length, carries through the reign of good emperor Darius, who is also the Artaxerxes of Ezra-Nehemiah, and probably also the Ahasuerus of Esther (BC 3:2-5).
comment: Ezra 6:15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
7. Daniel’s 70 weeks should be seen as weeks of years, and should be taken literally. Comment: But not necessarily continuous. But the 7 week period is literally 49 years, and the 62 weeks are literally 434 days, but there can be a gap between the 2 literal periods, and a gap between the 62 week (net 69 weeks), and the 70th week. JJ here means these two time periods cannot be taken symbolically, i.e. like we do with the 1000 year long millennium in Revelation. That is a symbolic number, not to be taken literally, as is the thousand in the following symbolic verses: Joshua 23:10 One of your men puts to flight a thousand,; Psalm 105:8 and 1 Chronicles 16:15 He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations Rev 20 "a thousand years"; Psalm 50 says, "Every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." So you see. Sometimes it is OK to spiritualize and sometimes you neet to not spiritualize, but take it literally. How do you know when to do which? Not by studying the Greek or Hebrew. But by applying logic, i.e. systematic theology.
They must start with the decree of Cyrus in A.M. 3474 (or thereabouts). The chronology of the time between Cyrus and Christ that has been used in the Church for centuries is based on the very questionable chronology of Ptolemy. There are many reasons to question it, and good reasons to favor taking Daniel 9’s chronology literally (see Biblical Chronology papers 2:1, 11 & 12; 3:1).
8. The chronology carries us to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ mid-way through the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27, which is A.M. 3960. If this happened in A.D. 30, the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem, which was in A.D. 70, happened in A.M. 4000 (BC 4:7).
============
The massacre of the “144,000” Jewish Christians in Jerusalem happened just before the destruction of the city, or probably in the year 4000.
(see Biblical Horizons 27-29, and Biblical Chronology 2:11;
James Jordan is scholar-in-residence at Theopolis. This article originally appeared at http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical-chronology/4_07/
I disagree with Jordan in this article when he says "Since the Messiah was “cut off” midway through the 70th week, the crucifixion of Christ came in 3961." Nowhere in the Bible (I think Jordan is referring to Daniel 9) does it say Messiah was “cut off” midway through the 70th week. Why "midway" Jim? where did you get that from? The bible implies "after 69 weeks Messiah will be cut off and have nothing", but this allows for much time to pass between the 69th week and the 70th week. "after 69 weeks". Could be years or decades till the next special "week" talked about would occur. Just like the Dispys, I disconnect the 70th week from the 69th week. I just lay it down again from August 63 to August 70 AD. While the Dispys say Daniels 70th week has not yet come even some 1994 years after the 69th week. Dispys insert a much larger gap between Daniels 69th week and 70th week, than I do. Jordan insists on keeping them all continuous. That the 70th week must follow upon the heels of the 69th week.
Since 3930AM = 0AD
the 70 weeks ended in 3965AM per JJ. or 35 AD. But Daniel 9:26 says after the (net 69 weeks) messiah will be cut off. If we dont insert a gap here it means Jesus was crucified in 28AD. If He was born in 4BC it makes Him dying at age 32.
Problem with that is Jn the baptist public ministry started in 29 AD per Luke 3:1 and He started his Public ministry a little earlier than Jesus did His. He was the fore-runner.
But
Daniel 9:26 (kjv) says 70 weeks have been decreed for your people, and your holy city, to finish the transgression
(The Question here is, FINISH WHAT TRANSGRESSION? "the transgression of all mankind over all time" [which could not have happened by the end of the 70th week, since we are still sinning today.], or does it mean just to finish it by paying for the transgression of all elect mankind over all time, [by Jesus death on the cross] or does the KJV mean just finish the transgression of the Jews, by ending Judaism, by 70AD, the end of the 70th week, since this is in reference to "thy people and thy holy city" just one sentence prior. Well, let us examine what the Geneva Bible says to get more clarity. The Geneva Bible says: to finish the wickedness,
i.e. of the Jews, by 70AD, the end of the 70th week) KJV says: to make an end of sin,
(implying for paying for all the sins of all the elect, over All time, not just the sins of Jews up to 70AD when they ceased to exist.) (Geneva Bible says: and to seal up the sins,
i.e. of the Jews, since this chapter started out "for thy people and holy city". When you seal something up, you stop its growth, you limit it.) KJV: to make atonement for iniquity
(implying Jesus atone-ing for the sins of all the elect, over all time, not just the Jewish elect [who would become Christians]) (Geneva Bible says: and to reconcile the iniquity,
i.e. of the Jews. Their special covenant per Deut 28 required a reconciling of their performance under their covenant to Exodus 20 and Deut 28. , just like when you reconcile your bank statement with your personal check register), to bring in ever lasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
Thus we have to conclude that the Geneva Bible is far better than the KJV in Daniel 9, and both are far far better than any modern tranny here in Daniel 9.
problem here is we have 4 possibilities, none of which are perfect.
1) Jesus died at the end of the 70 weeks which fulfills Dan 9:26 well, but not LongStanding Christian Tradition which says Jesus died at age 30, in 30AD. This would have Jesus dying in 35AD and if Jesus was actualy born in 4BC, it makes Him 39 years old when crucified. But it keeps the 70 weeks continuous, i.e. it requires no skipping of years or gaps.
2) Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week, Jordans theory, but that violates Dan 9:26 cause we end up with 3.5 extra years at the end of which nothing significant happened to qualify for Dan 9:26. Also, no where in the Bible does it say or imply Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week. This introduces a gap of 3.5 years after the strict "after net 69 years messiah will be cut off", since strict interpretation would require Jesus to be cut off immediately after 69 weeks of years. Or in AD 27. But we prove later on in this web page that Jesus could not have started His public ministry earlier than 29AD and he had to minister at least 3.5 years. So if Jordan is going to introduce a magic dispy "gap" then so can I. I just do it for X number of years, X = 6 to 11 years to make Jesus get crucified anywhere from 33AD to 38AD. For the record, Jordan says in his commentary on Daniel HANDWRITING ON THE WALL "The cutting off of the Messiah refers to the events of AD 30, Jesus' excommunication and crucifixion."
3) Have Jesus die at the end of 69 weeks (i.e. in 27AD), and dis connect the 70th week, till later on in Dan 9:26 "and the people of the prince to come will destroy the city and sanctuary" plainly the 70 AD event. Start that 70th week 7 years prior to Aug 70AD, I.E. insert a gap of 36 or 37 years between the 69th week and the 70th week. Problem here is to say Jesus died in 27AD doesn't fit with Johns "in the 15th year of Tiberius" John started his public ministry (i.e. in 29AD) and Jesus public ministry came shortly after that since John was the fore-runner.
4) Do what the Dispys do. Claim that the "decree" is Artaxerxes decree some 80 years after Cyrus Decree. Since: How on Cyrus's death his son Cambyses assumed sovereign power, and strictly forbade the Jews to build their temple How Darius, the son of Hyson becoming king of Persia, honoured the Je"wish nation and rebuilt
their temple " (y) How after him his son Xerxes was also kindly disposed toward the Jews
According to 1 Esdras and Ezra it is the satraps, not the Jews, who ask that Darius have a search made for Cyrus's decree. Then the dispys have Jesus die Sometime after the 69th week, (i.e. sometime, but not immediately after 27AD) insert a gap of a few years to make it come out to 30 AD. Just as long as it is "after 69 weeks" it fulfills Dan 9:26. Scripture doesn't say how long "after 69 weeks", it could be years. Then we will do the same for the 70th week. Insert a gap of thousands of years, and still not yet fulfilled to this day.
5) Do what Jean Calvin and JJ do. Reject the date of Cyrus Decree. Our history must be off, and the Bible must be correct. We need to start the 490 years with Cyrus decree, but that decree didn't happen in 530BC. It seems we are left with the solution advocated by Calvin in his lectures on Daniel, which is that our BC dating system is wrong at this point and the decree of Cyrus came in the year 457 BC, eighty years closer to our time.
In 586 the City of Jerusalem fell, and the temple was destroyed. The exile lasted from 586 to 536 BC when the Medes and Persians soon defeated Babylon then under a decree from King Cyrus, approx. 50,000 Jews were allowed to return and rebuild their country.' JJ says: The plagues took place during the (solar) year 2513, as did the Exodus. We can construct an approximate chronology as follows:
http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical-chronology/4_08/
the destruction of Jerusalem came in A.M. 3425 (or thereabouts, i.e. 505BC) [BC=Biblical Chronology Article] (BC 3:9 – 4:7). Third, current Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias err in the way they attempt to reconcile Biblical chronology with the Assyrian King Lists (BC 4:1-3).
6. Daniel 9:24-27 speaks of two prophetic periods for the people of God, focusing on the coming of the last Adam. The first, 49 years in length, carries through the reign of good emperor Darius, who is also the Artaxerxes of Ezra-Nehemiah, and probably also the Ahasuerus of Esther (BC 3:2-5).
7. Daniel’s 70 weeks should be seen as weeks of years, and should be taken literally. They must start with the decree of Cyrus in A.M. 3474 (or 456 BC thereabouts). The chronology of the time between Cyrus and Christ that has been used in the Church for centuries is based on the very questionable chronology of Ptolemy. There are many reasons to question it, and good reasons to favor taking Daniel 9’s chronology literally (BC 2:1, 11 & 12; 3:1).
8. The chronology carries us to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ mid-way through the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27, which is A.M. 3960. If this happened in A.D. 30, the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem, which was in A.D. 70, happened in A.M. 4000 (BC 4:7).
3272 Ahaz 1 Pekah 18
3275 Ahaz 4 ("Jotham 20") Interregnum 1 (Hoshea Governor) 2 Ki. 15:30
3283 Ahaz 12 Hoshea 1 2 Ki. 17:1
3291 Hezekiah 6 Hoshea 9 (end of Israel) 2 Ki. 18:10
start with the decree of Cyrus in A.M. 3474 (or 456BC
I reject those who use Lunar eclipse records to project back to the lunar eclipse of Friday April 3rd 33AD as being the date when Christ died. I ask, what does a lunar or even solar eclipse have to do with the crucifixion of Christ? There was a darkness so thick it could be felt, for about 3 hours, per Mark 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
That is no solar nor lunar eclipse. And the verses that do talk about Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, or the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, etc. are all talking about 70Ad "day of the Lord" coming in wrath against Jerusalem. Not the crucifixion of Christ.
Because Matt 24 says "Sun turned to darkness, moon turned to blood".
The only eminent supporter of 23 April, A.D. 34 that we have come across was Sir Isaac Newton, and his main reason seems to have been that 23 April is St George's Day!).
I agree w Newton. Having Jesus die in the final year of the 70th week, is allowed for in "after 69 weeks". How else could God say it? "but in the middle of the 70th week, he shall be cut off" or "at the end of the 70th week he shall be cut off" yes we would prefer that. But "after 62 (net 69) can also mean "sometime" after 62 but not after 70 or God would have said "after 70 weeks messiah will be cut off". It is shorter to just say after 62 implying sometime after 62 but obviously pre 70. So let us place Jesus crucifixion as Newton does in 23 April 34AD. Now how do we arrive at that? Well, God says in: Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land (of Judah)shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
Luke implies that John the Baptist began his public ministry shortly before Jesus did, and he gives us a historical reference point for when the Baptist’s ministry began: “In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar . . .” (Luke 3:1).
Tiberius Julius Caesar Augustus was Roman emperor from AD 14 until 37. So his 15th year would be 29AD. We can assume John began his public ministry in 29 AD. Shortly after that Jesus started His.
The Length of Jesus’s Ministry
Now we need to know how long Jesus’s public ministry lasted, because if it went on for two or more years, this would seem to rule out spring of AD 30 as a possible date for the crucifixion.
John’s Gospel mentions that Jesus attended at least three Passovers (possibly four), which took place once a year in the spring:
There was a Passover in Jerusalem at the start of his public ministry (John 2:13, 23).
There was a Passover in Galilee midway through his public ministry (John 6:4).
There was a final Passover in Jerusalem at the end of his public ministry, that is, the time of his crucifixion (John 11:55; 12:1).
And Jesus may have attended one more Passover not recorded in John but perhaps in one or several of the Synoptic Gospels (i.e., Matthew, Mark, and Luke).
https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1985/JASA3-85Humphreys.html
It had to be within Pontius Pilates rule. Procurator Pontius Pilate (AD 26-36)
It had to be before Pauls conversion, because Jesus spoke to him "from heaven".
I will show below that 40AD Thats the latest Paul could have gotten saved.
We dont know the earliest, except it had to be after the crucifixion.
The timing of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus is told in:
Galatians 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen;
immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. 20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
(comment: we dont know how long Paul spent here, could have been years)
Galatians 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in
Christ: 23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now
preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. 24 And they glorified God in me.
Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas,
and took Titus with me also.
Prior to that it was 3 years in Arabia by Himself, per Gal 1:17 comment: this is not Pauls final visit to Jerusalem. Years later, after all his missionary journies, Paul goes to Jerusalem to fulfill some vows, and causes a riot in the temple and he appeals to Caesar upon getting whipped and is sent to Felix, all within approx 1 month of each other.
Acts 24:27 But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room (station or office): and Felix, willing to show the Talmudic Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.
Antonius Felix (52-59 AD)
Porcius Festus (59-62 AD)
Emperor Tiberius (AD 14-37) Jesus dies under Tiberius reign.
======
Herodian rulers and procurators:
Procurator Pontius Pilate (AD 26-36)
Procurator Marcellus (AD 37)
Procurator Marullus (AD 37-41)
Herod Agrippa I (king) (AD 41-44)
Herod Agrippa II (king of Chalcis and others) (AD 48-70)
======
ROMAN PROCURATORS OF JUDEA: (AD 44-66)
Cuspius Fadus (44-46 AD)
Tiberius Julius Alexander (46-48 AD)
Ventidius Cumanus (48-52 AD)
Antonius Felix (52-59 AD)
Porcius Festus (59-62 AD)
Albinus (62-64 AD)
Gessius Florus (64-66 AD)
Marcus Antonius Julianus (AD 70) [War 6.238 (6.4.3)]
======
So, Pauls defense before Felix occurred in AD 57.
Jerusalem mugging in the temple could not have occurred later than 57AD.
Ed Stevens book dates
Matthew (AD 31-38)
Mark (AD 38-44)
Galatians (AD 51)
1 Thess. (AD 51-52)
2 Thess. (AD 51-52)
===========
See if the crucifixion is a nice round number off of the below.
Ezra 6:14
And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the
prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And
they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God
of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and
Artaxerxes king of Persia.
Ezra 6:15
And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which
was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
Ezra 6:16
And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest
of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of
God with joy,
Ezra 6:17
And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred
bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering
for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes
of Israel.
Ezra 6:18
And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their
courses, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is
written in the book of Moses.
Ezra 6:19
And the children of the captivity kept the passover upon the
fourteenth day of the first month.
Since, according to Josephus (in the following sentence), the temple was completed in the 9th year of Darius, the building must have taken 7 years. Does this mean Jesus had a 7 year ministry?
Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in
the countries enter thereinto.
Going back from June-July 17 AD70 3.5 years gives Dec 66 or Jan 67. Making the best candidate for the Abomination of Desolation to be when Eleazar filled the Temple area with his private army, and started polluting it w. blood and corpses of men.
False Interpretations:
James B Jordan, BIBLICAL HORIZONS Foundation, usually an excellent resource, implies that in Daniel 12 the "time, times and half a time" dont have to refer to years, but can mean political rulers over periods of time, i.e. "set times", i.e. times (or seasons) (or periods) set apart, noted for what high priestly line was ruling when, or what line of kings were ruling over Judea when, not necessarily continuous years w. no breaks in between, and not for a strict limit of 1 year each. And in fact they can skip several years between each other. He says on Page 625 of his commentary on Daniel THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL, regarding the 'time, times and 1/2 time of Daniel 12:7'
The “set-times” are delineated in the prophecy. The first set-time is mentioned in Daniel 11:27, 29, and corresponds to the tribulation under Menelaus and Antiochus Epiphanes, (comment: 171 BC) the time after the initial shattering of the High Priest.
The “set-times” that follow seem to be the Hasmonean period (comment:140-37 BC) which is said to be “still the set-time,” a continuation of the shattering of the High Priest (11:35) - and the Herodian period (11:36-45), which though not explicitly called a ‘t-time” is clearly yet another period (comment:36BC-62AD). The two set-times are those the fourth head of the third beast (Hellenistic Rome) and of the fourth beast (Imperial Rome i.e. Julius to Nero). The “half a set-time” would the Great Tribulation that follows right after the coming of Michael (comment: say 62AD on to 69AD when the Neronic persecution GREAT TRIB ended per Jordan). Page 625 of his commentary on Daniel THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL.
footnote 3 Perhaps these three periods are intended to be Specific: first the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, second the time of the Hasmonean Jewish Kings, third the time of Herod the Great, and the 45 days or the time of the Apostolic Church and its trials. The final deliverance comes with the destruction of the “world” in AD 70, See chapter 25.
Page 500 of his commentary on Daniel THE HANDWRITING ON THE WALL.
Note: I Francis Kuhlman would like to change the Christian Commonwealth's (and the whole world's) Dating system over to AM instead of using BC and AD. So the year of this writing would be instead of 2024AD it would be (4000-70)+the-AD-date=3930+2024=5954A.M. The formula to convert any modern date from A.D. xyz (say today 2024) to A.M is to take xyz (2024) and add 3930 to it (yielding 5954). I know this sounds dangerous and has bad precedent, as in the French Revolution tried to eliminate the Christian 7 day work week, and declared that "this is year 1 of the revolution, instead of 1789. The Talmudic Jews in 66 A.D. also minted coins that were dated "year 1 of the revolution". But going to an A.M. system makes calculating all dates so much easier. And calculating the time span between 2 events that lie on opposing sides of 0 AD.
Nebuchadnezzar burned the temple on the X day of the monthe of Y in the year AM
I Francis Kuhlman (author of this web page CCnow.US) assign the seventeenth day of Panemus, [Tamuz,] (approx June-July) 70 AD stoppage of the Daily to the prophecy predicted by Dan 12:11, but the Jewish Abomination of Desolation was appox. 3.5 years (1290 days) prior to that, i.e. sometime in December of 66 (Eleazar taking over the temple and moving his army onto temple grounds.)
I differ from Ed Stevens here, who assigns the mid 66AD stoppage of the Daily as the fulfillment of Daniel. I choose the major stoppage, addressed as such in Josephus.
Jerusalem had the exclusive spiritual franchise to make reparations for the nations, per Solomons' temple dedication prayer.
It was a BIG DEAL both to the Talmudic Jews, and to the superstitious gentiles who gave many votive gifts to the temple, when the Talmudic Jews stopped making sacrifices for the Nations in their temple.
In this case, the abomination of desolation (Dec 66, or Jan 67) actually precedes the “daily sacrifice” being abandoned by the rebels, but this verse doesn't have to portray the order things happened, nor causality, nor chronology, just the space between 2 events. It makes no claim on which came first. It's true that we usually say "the time between A and B is 30 days", implying that A happened before B but it doesn't have to be that way. Such is the case here. B actually happened before A in history. The Abomination (to the Talmudic Jews) happened before the sacrifices were stopped. Now of this event Josephus says on p. 574 (of the Whiston edition):
1. AND now Titus ...had Josephus brought to him (for he had been informed that on that very day, which was the seventeenth day* of Panemus, [Tamuz,] (approx June-July, if you run Tamuz from June 15 to July 15, then 17 days later than June 15 would be July 2nd; but if you go with the traditional August 30th burning of the temple, then daily stop had to be July 15th. If you go with August 10th temple burning, then daily stop had to be June 25th = Dec 15 of 66 for Abom of desol getting established) the Romans sacrifice called “ the Daily Sacrifice ” had failed, and had not been offered to God for want of men to offer it, and that the people were grievously troubled at it) and commanded him to say the same things to John that he had said before, that if he had any malicious inclination for fighting, he might come out with as many of his men as he pleased, in order to fight, without the danger of destroying either his city or temple ; but that he (Titus) desired he would not defile the temple, nor thereby offend against God. That he might, if he pleased, offer the sacrifices which were now discontinued, by any of the Jews whom he should pitch upon. Upon this, Josephus stood in such a place where he might be heard, not by John only, but by many more, and then declared to them what Caesar had given him in charge, and this in the Hebrew language. So he earnestly prayed them to spare their own city, and to prevent that fire which was just ready to seize upon the temple, and to offer their usual sacrifices to God therein. At these words of his a great sadness and silence were observed among the people. But the tyrant himself (John of Gischala, leader of the Zealots) cast many reproaches upon Josephus, with imprecations besides ; and at last added this withal, that he did never fear the taking of the city, because it was God’s own city. (This fulfills the verses:
II Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:
and
Matthew 24:34ff
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
James B Jordan (Biblical Horizons) says when you saw Titus armies outside the city gates, believe you me, you would have known that "her time had come". But he fails to recall that the Zealots (rebels) confidence was bolstered by Cestius retreat, Vespasians' retreat, Nero dying in April of 68, and Rome having many revolutions on her hands, too busy to deal w. Judea, they hoped. And in the year 69 AD, Rome had 4 emperors. Tremendous instability. So, when 70 AD rolled around and Titus lay without the City, it is entirely believable that the Zealots would put their confidence in God not destroying His city and His temple.
In answer to which, Josephus mocked thus, with a loud voice : “To be sure, thou hast kept this city wonderfully pure for God’s sake! the temple also continues entirely unpolluted! Nor hast thou been guilty of any impiety against him, for whose assistance thou hopest ! He still receives his accustomed sacrifices! Vile wretch that thou' art ! if any one should deprive thee of thy daily food, thou wouldst esteem him to be an enemy to thee; but thou hopest to have that God for thy supporter in this war whom thou hast deprived of his everlasting worship! and thou imputest those sins to the Romans, who to this very time take care to have our laws observed, and almost compel these sacrifices to be still offered to God, which have by thy means been intermitted!
Who is there can avoid groans and Lamentations at the amazing change that is made in this city? since very foreigners and enemies do now correct that impiety which thou hast occasioned : while thou, who art a Jew, and was educated in our laws, art become a greater enemy to them than the others! But still, John, it is never dishonorable to repent, and amend what hath been done amiss, even at the last extremity. Thou hast an instance before thee in Jechoniah, the king of the Jews, if thou hast a mind to save the city, who, when the king of Babylon made war against him, did, of his own accord, go out of this city before it was taken, and did undergo a voluntary captivity with his family, that the sanctuary might not be delivered up to the enemy, and that he might not see the house of God set on fire : on which account he is celebrated among all the Jews, in their sacred memorials, and his memory is become immortal, and will be conveyed fresh down to our posterity through all ages. This, John, is an excellent example in such a time of danger; and I dare venture to promise that the Romans shall still forgive thee. And take notice, that I, who make this exhortation to thee, am one of thine own nation ; I, who am a Jew, do make this promise to thee. And it will become thee to consider who I am that give thee this.
So from the cessation of the Daily, in July of 70, counting back 1290 days, you come to Eleazar the Abomination of Desolation getting not "set up" but "established". He had been "set up" years earlier, as the captain of the temple guard and supply. As such, all Jews would have expected to see him in the Temple daily. Thus he could not fulfill "standing in the place where he should not be". He belonged there, after he was "set up". But he was not yet "established" as the tyrant, and thief and appropriator of all Temple assets, and blood spiller in the temple, until December of 66 AD.
This is when: Wars of the Jews, x Josephus, page 497 or Wars Book 2, Chap 20 Section 3 "But as to those who had pursued after Cestius, when they were returned back to Jerusalem, they overbore some of those that favored the Romans by violence, and some they persuaded [by entreaties] to join with them, and got together in great numbers in the temple, and appointed a great many generals for the war. Joseph also, the son of Gorion, and Ananus the high priest, were chosen as governors of all affairs within the city, and with a particular charge to repair the walls of the city ; for they did not ordain Eleazar the son of Simon to that office, although he had gotten into his possession the prey they had taken from the Romans, and the money they had taken from Cestius, together with a great part of the public treasures, because they saw he was of a tyrannical temper; and that his followers were, in their behavior, like guards about him. However, the want they were in of Eleazar’s money, and the subtle tricks used by him, brought all so about, that the people were circumvented, and submitted themselves to his authority in all public affairs."
How does Eleazar fulfill Matt 24?
1. After this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink; Wars of the Jews, x Josephus, page 497 or Wars Book 2, Chap 20 Section 1
Now, bouncing ahead to mid 70 AD:
Just a month and a half later, after the Daily was stopped i.e. 45 days later, Aug 30th the temple burned down.
Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Note: this is just 45 days later than 1290 which was just 13 days more than time, times, and half a time [the famous 3.5 years predicted in Dan 12:11]. So what happened 45 days after the Daily sacrifice was stopped I answer that below. But consider what silence you get from other commentators, on this verse, and from some futurists, what nonsense you get.
Continuing on with
Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
I.E. The temple was burned down just 45 days after the Daily was stopped. After the temple was burned down (all 3 walls of Jerusalem had been broken thru, by the Romans by this time, and once the temple was destroyed it ended the "strong delusion" sent by God, that He would protect "his city" and "His temple". This broke the back of the Zealot Resistance, and thus the persecuted Jews that remained in the city were free to surrender to the Romans and live [as slaves] rather than die under Zealot rule) Note: Compare this interpretation of Dan 12:12 to all other Commentators. It is my opinion that they do not know what to do with Dan 12:12.
In: Final Decade Before the End, by Ed Stevens (order off preterist.org), Ed says:
They would have known that the Parousia had taken place. They would have been dancing in the streets and shouting about it from the rooftops – anything but silent about it, or unaware of it! The fact that not a single post-70 AD Christian mentions the Parousia as a past event is embarrassing and challenging to all other Preterists who do not hold to the rapture view. But that silence is exactly what we rapture preterists would expect to find after the rapture removed them. Clement is a case in point. Not only does Clement fail to claim a past Parousia, he explicitly teaches that it was still future and "about to" happen! How can that be? This really discredits those pre-70 saints who supposedly still remained on earth after the Parousia, especially when we see Papias, Polycarp, and Ignatius teaching that the Parousia was still future (AD 110). If any of those pre 70 AD saints were still around after experiencing the Parousia, why didn't they speak up and set the record straight with Papias, Polycarp, and Ignatius? Their silence about what they had just experienced at the Parousia totally discredits their Christian faithfulness – OR even worse, it proves that the Parousia really did not occur after all, and that they were silent because they were embarrassed about the failure of Jesus’ promise to return in their lifetime. But that would mean that Jesus and the apostles were false prophets when they predicted His return in their lifetime. Obviously, neither of these two scenarios is acceptable to futurists or preterists. Those true Christians could not have been silent about the Parousia afterwards if they were still on earth. Their silence discredits them, or proves that the Parousia did not occur. But the promised Parousia could not fail to occur. That would falsify the faith of ALL Christians, including Futurists. So there is a lot at stake here for ALL Christians, and all preterists, not just the rapture preterists. And it is the rapture view which rescues both futurists and preterists from the jaws of the liberal and atheistic critics who seek to overthrow our faith by pointing out the supposed failure of Christ to return in that first century generation as He said He would. The rapture explains why there were no true Christians right after AD 70 talking about what they had just seen, heard and experienced at the Rapture.
The concept of an Apostolic Canon is probably new for most of us. It is essentially the idea that all the NT writings were written, collected, and certified as authoritative by the apostles before they passed from the earthly scene. The preterist version of that theory goes even further to assert that this process of apostolic canonization was completed BEFORE AD 70. This is not a totally new idea. It has been around since the first century, and several evangelical conservative theologians who are futurists espouse most of it in one form or another. Ernest L. Martin and Norman Geisler are examples. Ernest Martin even uses the term "Apostolic Canonization" to label his view.
===========
per Revelation 6:11 ... until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
==========
Just like in Romans 11, here in Dan 9 & 12 the term "thy people", changes meaning. You have to use systematic theology to keep the meaning straight. You cant just depend on Greek & Hebrew, nor upon grammar (who does that pronoun point-to last), etc. Consider who are "thy people" per angel Gabriel to Daniel. Well Daniel was both a Jew and a Christian (follower of the messiah who would come). Thus Daniel was a saved, man of God, i.e. a born again Christian (even though he might not have had the full in dwelling of the H.S. as no one did, in the Old Testament, per all the OT prophecies that say "I will write my laws on their hearts and I shall dwell among them). Daniel knew about Jeremiahs prophecy of 70 years, and that it was ending, so he was asking God about what should the Jews, his nation or ethnic people do next. But Gabriel re-directs Daniels priorities. He should be more concerned about the fate of the elect, i.e. the Christians, than about the apostate Jewish Nation. Thus Gabriel speaks of both in Daniel 12. Just as Paul said "I could wish myself accursed for the sake of my people (if it would save my people), so Daniel has an equal unhealthy priority with his patriotism, just like many Americans today worry about the fate of their nation, now in 2024 when God would have them stay their minds on the elect getting thru this "valley of the shadow of death" and the opportunities for Christianity waiting on the other side of our crash, invasion, and impending suffering here in America, for all of our regime changes, assassinations, wars to enrich the Jews, etc. as God says "give back to her (America) double of what she gave to others".
Now, the objection will naturally be raised “if the rapture happened back in 65-66 AD, why didn’t we hear about it today? How come no First Century Christians wrote about it happening? How come no Jewish Author, or Roman secular historian has reported it? It should have been front page news in all the local press of the day, Jewish and Roman. OR would it?
Answer: The good guys were all either gone (raptured) or the good unbelievers were too afraid to write about it, and the bad guys suppressed the truth in un-righteousness.
Ask yourself this. Rome knew about this miracle worker named Jesus who could heal on command, even raise people from the dead. A Roman centurion even went to Jesus to get his servant healed in Matt 8:8 “The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed.”
Yet where does Jesus appear in any of the writings of Tacitus, Suetonius, Dio Cassius (Lucius); Velleius Paterculus etc. This guy is the only guy in history that resurrected himself from the dead, whose EVERY prophecy came true, even raised people from the dead, and yet because Rome crucified Him, they were too embarrassed to write about Him. Do you think they are going to faithfully report the Rapture?
What would that report look like?
“Last Thursday Night, several hundred thousand Christians, all of whom we were planning on arresting, and putting to death, upon orders from Nero, just disappeared. We dont know if they somehow got organized and deported themselves out of the Roman Empire, or if the Talmudic Jews killed them off, or if they just went into hiding in the hills, but we are not crazy enough to say that a prophecy by the Apostle Paul, whom we beheaded, came true, and all these Christians just floated away into the air.
What Roman reporter or historian would write that, and still expect to keep his job, or his credibility intact. Since the rapture was an un-confirmed fact (no-one knew where these people went, The Romans didn’t even know if all the escapees were Christians, since who is going to confirm that? If you knew someone was a Christian and didn’t report them to the authorities, you became an accomplice yourself.) Since the Rapture suffers from these 2 failings in verification, what Roman News Reporter is going to write on it?
So nobody is coming forward and admitting that they knew of Christians who floated away. These missing persons might still turn up, when they come out of hiding, in the hills, so why should I write about it, were I a Roman historian?
It is worse, if you are a Jewish reporter or historian. We Talmudic Jews are in the process of persecuting those Christians to death, now that we have rebelled against Rome and have thrown off the Roman yoke. It is 66 AD, and all Judea is arming themselves, preparing for the coming war against Vespasian.
We report facts that help our cause, and suppress the rest.
When Jesus walked the earth, and performed all His miracles, did we report that in our newspapers, or histories? Heavens no. Why glorify that deceiver Jesus, by reporting all His miracles. That would cause more Jews to flock to Him, and become His followers. When we got Jesus crucified, by the Romans and per
Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Was this news worthy? Oh Yea, never happened before in History.
Did we faithfully report all this? Heavens no, why give glory to that deceiver called Jesus, why contribute to His following, and make more problems for ourselves. We suppressed those truths in unrighteousness.
The official policy that has come down from the Sanhedrin, is to poo-poo all the miracles of Jesus. Jesus is nothing, His movement is a tiny flash in the pan, that will soon go away.
Did He raise Lazarus from the dead? Not if we can bury that story forever,
John 12: 9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
Did Jesus resurrect Himself from the grave? Not if we can bury that story.
Matt 28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Talmudic Jews until this day.
John 12:
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias (Isaiah) the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
So, now, if we didn’t report any of these things in our Talmud or Mishnah, do you think we are going to faithfully report some RAPTURE. Another prophecy fulfilled? Heavens no, we are going to bury that too. Suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. Besides that, like the Romans, we didn’t actually SEE these people float away. All we know is that hundreds of thousands of them have turned up missing. Probably the Romans got them. They might come out of the hills, next week, from their hiding places. Then my report of them floating away would make me the laughing stock of the year.
Even Josephus, under the protection and provision of Vespasian and Titus, thus safe from Jewish retribution, (at age 38 or so) never mentions Jesus, in his WARS OF THE JEWS, which covered the same time period of Jesus Life and of the miracles done by the Apostles. That would have been the time to mention the coming of the messiah, yet Josephus is silent. Only after Josephus converts to Christianity (age 63 or so) when he is writing his ANTIQUITIES, does he show Christian acknowledgments. And then, but mildly.
(18th book of Antiquities, chapter 3, section 3, p 379)
3. Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.
He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
Now how about the Christians? Are they going to write about the Rapture? Well all the TRUE Christians got raptured out of here, they aren’t going to write about it. The ones left behind may be too ashamed to report about their own rejection by the Lord.
If friends and family members were bold enough to write about the disappearance of a Christian friend of theirs, such a document would immediately put you in jeopardy of getting arrested by the Romans (you knew of a Christian and you didn’t report him to the authorities) or it would have gotten you persecuted by the Talmudic Jews.
Did you actually see someone float away, if so, it was another miracle of Jesus’ that they dont want getting out. If all you know is such and such disappeared, then well, maybe the Romans came and got him by night, or maybe the Talmudic Jews sent an assassin. Dont go claiming any Rapture, if you didn’t actually see floating bodies and hear a trumpet. You back slidden nominal Christians.
If they got raptured with their clothes on, then all you have is a missing persons report. If they left a pile of clothes back on earth, at the spot where they got raptured, (per “Left Behind” series, x Tim Lahaye) now you have an anomaly, a story you can compare with others, who might be reluctant to tell you their story, since having their name published about, puts them at risk of Roman and Jewish persecution for being an accomplice.
Assuming that the Rapture happened in 66 AD has several implications.
1) John must have finished Revelation prior to 66 AD, unless God made an exception and left John on the earth to accomplish his special mission; in which case he would have had to lay low during the 2nd half of the Great Tribulation, then after 70 AD, he would have been the only apostle alive on planet earth, and thus in GREAT DEMAND, virtually making him the 2nd pope on earth (Peter being the first, if you believe the R.C. church). Personally I prefer to go with Ed Stevens analysis, that John was martyred in AD 64-65 in the Neronic Persecution about the same time as Peter and Paul. Matthew 20:22 "You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
2) All the books of the Bible were finished prior to 66AD (because there weren't any Apostles around to write any more books nor give their stamp of Apostolic Canonicity to such books if written by non apostles); Which by the way is what is required to get another book in the Bible or recognize it as canonical. Not some church council hundreds of years later. Now suppose God left it up to church councils, hundreds of years later, to determine canonicity. I am going to assume you know about the current fad of pulling down civil war statues in America because some of those generals were slave holders back in the 1800's. Then we replace those statues with more politically correct ones, like some civil rights hero of the 1960's, i.e. Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks, etc. Yes our state legislatures and Federal congress do that all the time.
Well now suppose a church council in America meets in the year 2030 and decides that the entire New Testament is way too Anti-Semitic and Racist. Some of those books in the Bible have to be excommunicated, and replaced with, say THE JOYS OF INTER-RACIAL DATING AND MARRIAGE, or THE SAGA OF JEWISH PERSECUTION DOWN THRU THE CENTURIES. Surely all church councils will have the same guidance and wisdom of the 12 apostles wont they? Surely modern church councils would NEVER do any thing just because it was politically correct, would they? How many church councils have to-date voted to allow homosexual pastors in their denominational protected pulpits?
Or look at the authority of church councils this way. The original Roe v. Wade landmark legal decision by our U.S. Supreme Court issued on January 22, 1973, struck down a Texas statute banning abortion, essentially legalizing abortion across all 50 states. The court some how reasoned that a woman’s right to an abortion was implicit in the right to privacy protected by the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. Oh yea. My womb (if I were female) has a right to its privacy and this girl baby fetus has "invaded" my wombs right to privacy. I am going to cut this little girl baby out of my womb. You see, that little girl baby inside my womb has NO rights, compared to me. She has no first amendment right to free speech, to protest, and none of the other rights, either. She is not even a person. She is just a blob that hopefully cant feel anything because she is going to be cut out in pieces without sedation and vacuumed out. Or burned out with salt water.
The vote was 7 to 2. Oh darn, if only we Christians could have gotten 3 more votes, we could have had Roe v Wade go our way on a 4-5 split. Same way with church councils voting on canonicity. Yea, lets celebrate! The General Assembly of the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) met this year and decided in a 200 to 199 vote to keep the book of Revelation in the Bible, so we dont have to change our Bibles for another 4 years till the canonicity issue comes up again. Or how about this one. NewsFlash. The World Council of Churches met today and decided that standardization of all Bibles must take first priority amongst all the denominations. Therefore a study committee has been formed to decide which of the 7 extra or apocryphal books of the Catholic Bible will be forced upon the Protestants, then which of the Eastern Orthodox books will be forced on the Catholics and Protestants. How successful do you think that effort will be? Would you like to be on that "study committee"? What a joke. To avoid all this confusion, God instituted Apostolic Canonicity.
So dont let your Catholic friends, nor the Orthodox church today, tell you that "we gave you your bible, our magesterium authority is even greater than your scriptural authority you "sola scriptura" protestants. For more on this topic, see Ed Stevens ApostolicCanonization.pdf off the preterist.org website. Go to the store link to purchase from their store. The basic logic here is that Only those inspired men who had the authority to write the books in the first place would have the authority and Paraclete's help to collect them and put their stamp of authenticity and authority on them. Then too, only Peter held the keys to the Kingdom, and that all the canonical books must have been written by their respective authors, then collected, and certified by Peter before his death (AD 64-65).
By the way, if any apostle were alive after 70 AD, imagine his colossal sin in not reporting the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, in a letter to New Testament churches and the implications of the sacrificial system and levitical priesthood being done away. If the Book of Revelation was written in the 90's, where is its detailed description of the destruction of the 70 AD temple, as God took care to do, with the first temple as in 2 Kings 24:10-16 and 2 Kings 25 especially v. 9 where the temple is destroyed.
Do our church councils of today, have the same advantages of the Apostles?
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
No they dont. So why give them the authority to decide on which books are the WORD OF GOD, and which arent. Why give them the authority to bind and loose here on earth and up in heaven.
3) People continued getting saved, even after the Rapture, but were laying low, till the Great Trib ended. God raised up some to be Elders, Preachers, Pastors, etc, to form churches, safeguard the canon, and continue with the great commission, though most Christians may not have become converted till after 70 AD.
There was a 3.5 year period on the earth when there were very few Christians, i.e. from mid 66 AD (the rapture) till after the death of Nero June 68 AD. and after word got around that there is no need to continue to try to please Nero, he is dead, so ease off persecuting the Christians.
This may explain all the weird theories and heresies that the early church fathers fell into. They lacked mature leadership, because the Great Trib and the Rapture wiped out all mature leadership.
Here is another reason why there would be no record of the rapture having happened. When Jesus said Mt 25:15-18 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ... then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out, that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
You as a first century Christian, knowing of these words, you have to decide if you are going to wait till the last minute, till it is too late to save your belongings along with your life, as you flee in haste to the hills, or will you move out now, sell your land, your house, and be a prepper in the hills, storing up food, tools and weapons to survive off the radar, having disappeared from public view. The flight of Christians in Jerusalem, to Pella occurred immediately after James the Just brother of Jesus was killed by Ananus the high priest (during the interegnum from Festus to Albinus) in 62 AD.
If most of the Christians escaped the 70 AD siege of Jerusalem because they heeded Jesus words (as tradition holds) then who is going to be around to witness and report on a bunch of Christians that got raptured out of the hills of Judea? They left civilization long ago and went into hiding, to escape the Jewish then the Roman persecution.
The ones that stayed behind hid their Christianity and started worshiping in the Catacombs. Who is going to report on their disappearance if they are closet Christians or are already gone to the hills?
When can the first century Christians expect to have to flee to the hills? Mt 24:34 Truly I say to you, THIS generation
(a generation in the Bible is 40 years, these words were spoken by Jesus in 30 AD, so it had to happen prior to 70 AD) will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven
(political and religious rulers and power structures, the very covenant with God) and earth
(that which is governed by the heavens, and is fruit bearing [[supposed to be]] i.e. the Jewish people, as the covenant people of God, the chosen) will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Never-the-less, there will be some instances where unbelievers are in the proximity of real Christians when the rapture happens, and immediately noticed their vacancy see Mt 24:40 Then there will be two men in the field, one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other one will be left.
Now that is something to write about! or is it? Suppose you write about it. In your diary, suppose the Romans get a hold of your diary. If you linked your co-worker's disappearance with his Christianity, The Romans would have a case against you, why didn't you report his Christianity? Now you say he has just disappeared. Well maybe he has, and maybe you are really hiding him from us to protect him and you invented this disappearance story so we Romans would not come looking.'
We are going to come looking anyway, and we will search thoroughly thru everything you have, your attic, your basement, your barn, your woods, trying to find the secret place where you are hiding that Christian, and if you dont talk, and show us where he is, we will get rough with you to beat it out of you. So, yea, go ahead and write it down that your christian co-worker disappeared, run your mouth about it, tell your family friends and neighbors, so we can pay you a visit sooner rather than later.
Also Ed says on page 84 of Final-Decade-Stevens.pdf "Paul, John, and Peter were killed in the Neronic persecution (late AD 64)"
Ed Stevens brings up a good point on page 234 of Final_Decade-stevens.pdf He says, if the Futurists are right and there was no rapture in 66 AD, and no great trib 62 on to 69 the why are the Christians of 70 AD to 100 AD so silent. They should have been dancing in the streets, publishing their victory over the Talmudic Jews, and the stopping of the Roman persecution x Nero. Rejoicing under the Flavian dynasty. Nope, total silence. This is proof that there was a rapture and was a great trib.
===================
Also Ed says on page 84 of Final-Decade-Stevens.pdf "Paul, John, and Peter were killed in the Neronic persecution (late AD 64)"
If you search the internet, you will get various dates for the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 AD. For example https://www.britannica.com/event/First-Jewish-Revolt says: On the 9th of the month of Av or Ab (August) in ad 70, Jerusalem fell; the Temple was burned, and the Jewish state collapsed, although the fortress of Masada was not conquered by the Roman general Flavius Silva until April 73.
But, let us take a closer look at history to get a more appropriate date:
Matthew 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 24:2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
That was fulfilled by the Roman Army under Titus in 70 AD.
Josephus is clear: both Temples were destroyed on the 10th of Ab (our August)
Yet it is Jewish tradition even down to today (2023) to celebrate (with a fast, i.e. mourning) that event on the 9th of Ab, why?
Because in both cases Solomons’ temple and Herods’ temple, the fires were started on the 7th and the building was leveled on the 10th, (it took that long to burn down the pinnacle and also the cloisters), so rather than have to fast and mourn for 4 days, it is rounded off to the 9th. A compromise date, just like Christians celebrate Christmas on Dec 25th, even though we all know Jesus probably was not actually born on that date.
[The Mishnah (Ta'anit, iv. 4) speaks of five national misfortunes that occurred on the Ninth of Ab, the first one being that night "when the Israelite s were doomed to stay in the wilderness" for forty years (Num. xiv. 1 et seq.), the second and third the destruction of Jerusalem under Nebuchadnezzar and Titus, the fourth the fall of Bethar ( in the war of Bar Kokba, when the fall of the fortress of Bethar, in 135, sealed the fate of the Jewish nation forever.), and the fifth misfortune was the drawing of the plow over the Holy City and the Temple a year later, in order to turn the place into a Roman colony (compare Jerome, Zech. viii. 11). Henceforth the Ninth of Ab was like the Day of Atonement, the national fast-day "beginning with the evening before, no enjoyment whatever, whether in the way of eating and drinking or of bathing and anointing, being permitted from evening to evening. Even the study of the Law was to be confined to matters of a sad character (Ta'anit, 30a), nor should any work be done on that day." "He who does work on the Ninth of Ab," says Akiba, "will see no blessing in it" (Ta'anit, 30b).] https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/110-ab-ninth-day-of
The destruction of Solomons Temple is described in 2 Kings 25 and Jeremiah 52, which give contradictory dates for the Temple’s destruction, and the 9th of Av or Ab is not one of the dates: So, we Christians assume, that the start of the burning of the temple (out buildings, footers, annexes, etc) occurred on the 7th, but the completion of the temple proper (tall building) was not completed till the 10th. And to stay in compliance with Josephus, we just claim the 10th.
II Kings 25:8 (KJV) And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem: 25:9 And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire. 25:10 And all the army of the Chaldees, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down the walls of Jerusalem round about. 25:11 Now the rest of the people that were left in the city, and the fugitives that fell away to the king of Babylon, with the remnant of the multitude, did Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carry away. 25:12 But the captain of the guard left of the poor of the land to be vinedressers and husbandmen.
Jeremiah 52:12 (Geneva version) Now in the fifth month in the tenth day of the month (which was the nineteenth year of ye King Nebuchad-nezzar King of Babel) came Nebuzar-adan chief steward which stood before the king of Babel in Jerusalem, 52:13 And burnt the House of the Lord, and the King’s house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the great houses burnt he with fire. 52:14 And all the army of the Chaldeans that were with the chief steward, brake down all ye walls of Jerusalem round about. 52:15 Then Nebuzar-adan the chief steward carried away captive certain of the poor of the people, and the residue of the people that remained in the city, and those that were fled, and fallen to the king of Babel, with the rest of the multitude. 52:16 But Nebuzar-adan the chief steward left certain of the poor of the land, to dress the vines, and to till the land.
Josephus Wars of the Jews x Whiston; page 580, Book 6 Chapter 4 Section 5. So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house. But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous (Syro-Macedonian calendar), [Av,] (Jewish Calendar) (July-August Gregorian Calendar) upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon; although these flames took their rise from the Jews themselves, and were occasioned by them;
Josephus Wars of the Jews x Whiston; p 580 Book 6 Chapter 4 Section 2
This fire prevailed during that day (Note: let us assume the 7th of the month, when the Temple fire started) and the next also (Note: that would be the 8th of the month); for the soldiers were not able to burn all the Cloisters that were round about together at one time, but only by pieces. 3. But then on the next day, (Note: the 9th of the month) Titus commanded part of his army to quench the fire, (of the cloisters) and to make a road for the more easy marching up of the legions, while he himself gathered the commanders together. ... after these came together all the rest of the procurators and tribunes. Titus proposed to these that they should give him their advice what should be done about the holy house. Now, some of these thought it would be the best way to act according to the rules of war, [and demolish it ;] because the Jews would never leave off rebelling while that house was standing; at which house it was that they used to get all together. Others of them were of opinion, that in case the Jews would leave it, and none of them would lay their arms up in it, he might save it ; but that in case they got upon it, and fought any more, he might burn it; because it must then be looked upon not as a holy house, but as a citadel : and that the impiety of burning it would then belong to those that forced this to be done, and not to them.
Josephus Wars of the Jews x Whiston; p 580 Book 6 Chapter 4 Section 2
But Titus said, that “although the Jews should get upon that holy house, and fight us thence, yet ought we' not to revenge ourselves on things that are inanimate, instead of the men themselves; ” and that he was not in any case for burning down so vast a, work as that was, because this would be a mischief to the Romans themselves, as it would be an ornament to their government while it continued.
Note: how great an ornament? AKA why Titus was so reluctant to tear the temple down.
Josephus Wars book 5 chap 5 section 6 page 555 Whiston edition
6. Now the outward face of the temple in its front wanted nothing that was likely to surprise either men’s minds or their eyes : for it was covered all over with plates of gold of great weight, and, at the first rising of the sun, reflected back a very fiery splendour, and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun’s own rays. But this temple appeared to strangers, when they were at a distance, like a mountain covered with snow; for, as to those parts of it that were not gilt, they were exceeding white. On its top it had spikes with sharp points, to prevent any pollution of it by birds sitting upon it. Of its stones, some of them were forty-five cubits in length, five in height, and six in breadth.
Now back to Josephus Wars of the Jews x Whiston; p 580 Book 6 Chapter 4 Section 2
So Fronto, and Alexander, and Cerealis, grew bold upon that declaration, and agreed to the opinion of Titus. Then was this assembly dissolved, when Titus had given orders to the commanders that the rest of their forces should lie still ; but that they should make use of such as were most courageous in this attack. So he commanded that the chosen men that were taken out of the cohorts should make their way through the ruins and quench the fire.
Note: It was Gods will to have the temple burnt down, thus destroying the greatest idol of the age, leaving room for only the true invisible temple, of Christs Body. Daniel 9:26 says "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah
(Jesus) be cut off
(die), but not for himself
(based on His own sins or crimes): and the people
(Romans) of the prince that shall come
(Jesus) shall destroy the city
(Jerusalem) and the sanctuary
(Herods Temple). And its end will come with a flood
(of men pouring over the walls); even to the end
(of the age, i.e. 70 AD, end of the Temple, end of the Covenant, end of your people Daniel, no more (Old Testament O.T. Old Covenant, ethnic, false) Talmudic Jews, because there is no more covenant for them after 70 AD, end of the Beast too, as Rome virtually "died" under civil war during the year of 4 emperors, then Rome was resurrected by Vespasian) there will be war; desolations are determined.
. Note: both Judaism and Rome (the Sea Beast of Revelation) will be desolated. Julio-Claudian Rome died in 68AD with the death of Nero. For the next year and a half Rome had bloody civil war and the empire was considered by many to be dead. It finally got resurrected by the Flavian line of emperors (Vespasian). Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
and see Matthew 24:1 ... His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 24:2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”
But here it seems Gods will (to have the temple torn down) is being thwarted by Roman Charity, fear of impiety, and preservation of beauty.
What is a God to do? Even His Army does not want to burn down the beautiful Temple.
So it looks like this will never happen: But, here come the Talmudic Jews to the rescue. They will precipitate Gods will. They will manage to get the Temple burnt down.
The Rest of the Story
Josephus Wars of the Jews x Whiston; p 584 Book 6 Chapter 6 Section 2
Titus to the Jews; "When I came near your temple I again departed from the laws of war, and exhorted you to spare your own sanctuary, and to preserve your holy house to yourselves. I allowed you a quiet exit out of it, and security for your preservation (note: by "security for your preservation" Titus means the Romans will not attack you as you leave the temple and assemble yourselves somewhere else down field, we promise you will leave the temple alive); nay, if you had a mind, I gave you leave to fight in another place. Yet have you still despised every one of my proposals, and have set fire to your holy house with your own hands."
Note: The Jews did set fire to one of the Cloisters surrounding the Temple, to kill some Roman soldiers who were scaling the cloister via ladders, see:
Wars, page 577-578 or WARS-B6-C3
1. But now the seditious that were in the temple did every day openly endeavour to beat off the soldiers that were upon the banks, and on the twenty-seventh day of the fore-named month, [Panemus, or Tamuz] contrived such a stratagem as this:—They filled that part of the western cloister of the court of the gentiles which was between the beams, and the roof under them, with dry materials, as also with bitumen and pitch, and then retired from that place as though they were tired with the pains they had taken; at which procedure of theirs, many of the most inconsiderate among the Romans, who were carried away with violent passions, followed hard after them as they were retiring, and applied ladders to the cloister, and got up to it suddenly ; but the prudent part of them, when they understood this unaccountable retreat of the Jews, stood still where they were before. However, the cloister was full of those that were gone up the ladders; at which time the Jews set it all on fire; and as the flames burst out everywhere on the sudden, the Romans that were out of the danger were seized with a very great consternation, as were those that were in the midst of the danger in the utmost distress. So when they perceived themselves surrounded with the flames, some of them threw themselves down backwards into the city, and some among their enemies, [in the temple ;] as did many leap down to their own men, and broke their limbs to pieces: but a great number those that were going to take these violent methods were prevented by the fire; though some prevented the fire by their own swords. However, the fire was on the sudden carried so far as to surround those who would have otherwise perished. As for Cesar himself, he could not, however, but commiserate those that thus perished, although they got up thither without any order for so doing, since there was no way of giving them any relief.
Even though Titus had commanded his men to put the temple fires out, see: Wars p 580 B6-C4-S2 (Book 6 Chapter 4 Section 2) he puts the blame on the burning of the temple on the Jews, because he offered multiple times to move the war away from the temple, to preserve it, but the Jews would not leave their holy house, assuming that God would protect it no matter what the Talmudic Jews did, no matter how polluted the temple became on the inside, with rotting bodies and mens blood. Consider:
Wars page 575 B6-C2-S4 "indeed, there were none of the Roman soldiers who did not look with a sacred horror upon the holy house, and adored it, and wished that the robbers would repent before their miseries became incurable.
4. Now Titus was deeply affected with this state of things, and reproached John and his party, and said to them, ‘‘ Have not you, vile wretches that you are, by our permission, put up this partition-wall+ before your sanctuary? Have not you been allowed to put up the pillars thereto belonging, at due distances, and on it to engrave in Greek, and in your own letters, this prohibition, that no foreigner should go beyond that wall? Have we not given you leave to kill such as go beyond it, though he were a Roman? And what do you do now, you pernicious villains? Why do you trample upon dead bodies in this temple? and why do you pollute this holy house with the blood both of foreigners and Jews themselves? I appeal to the gods of my own country, and to every god that ever had any regard to this place, (for I do not suppose it to be now regarded by any of them;) I also appeal to my own army, and to those Jews that are now with me, and even to you yourselves, that I do not force you to defile this your sanctuary; and if you will but change the place whereon you will fight, no Roman shall either come near your sanctuary, or offer any affront to it; nay, I will endeavor to preserve you your holy house, whether you will or not.”
5. As Josephus explained these things from the mouth of Caesar, both the robbers and the tyrant thought that these exhortations proceeded from Titus’s fear, and not from his good-will to them, and grew insolent upon it; but when Titus saw that these men were neither to be moved by commiseration towards themselves, nor had any concern upon them to have the holy house spared, he proceeded, unwillingly, to go on again with the war against them.
That these seditious Jews were the direct occasions of their own destruction, and of the conflagration of their city and temple, and that Titus earnestly and constantly labored to save both, is here and everywhere most evident in Josephus.
Comment: These stupid Zealots completely ignored history. Forgetting that God let Nebuchadnezer destroy Solomons’ temple in 586 BC. Look at the beauty of the temple on the outside, they reasoned. We can always cleanse the temple on the inside after we take power and beat the Romans, and beat the other 2 gangs competing for power inside Jerusalem.
Titus reluctantly set fire to the temple gates, but only after his battering rams failed. See WARS OF THE JEWS page 579 or B6-C4 (Book 6, Chap 4)
as to how the temple itself was set on fire, see:
WARS-B6-C4-ppg-5 p. 580 but these Romans put the Jews to flight, and proceeded as far as the holy house itself. At which time one of the soldiers, without staying for any orders, and without any concern or dread upon him at so great an undertaking, and being hurried on by a certain divine fury, snatched somewhat out of the materials that were on fire, and being lifted up by another soldier, he set fire to a golden window, through which there was a passage to the rooms that were round about the holy house, on the north side of it. As the flames went upward the Jews made a great clamor, such as so mighty an affliction required, and ran together to prevent it; and now they spared not their lives any longer, nor suffered anything to restrain their force, since that holy house was perishing, for whose sake it was that they kept such a guard about it.
WARS-B6-C4-ppg-6 p. 580 And now a certain person came running to Titus, and told him of this fire, as he was resting himself in his tent after the last battle ; whereupon he rose up in great haste, and as he was, ran to the holy house, in order to have a stop put to the fire; note: but the soldiers were in such a frenzy, they could no longer be restrained by Titus.
Note: This also explains the perplexing conduct of Cestius 4 years earlier in 66, why he just gave up the fight, when victory was at hand. He did not anticipate the Zealots taking shelter in the temple, making it a final fortress he had to conquer, he had already broken through 2 or 3 walls, and seeing the good order and bravery of the Romans, surely the Jews would have surrendered by now. Later on, most other Judean cities under Vespasian did surrender, and live. It took Titus a 5 month siege to conquer the city, and that with all their corn burned up. How long would it take Cestius in a siege of the temple, when the Talmudic Jews had all their corn. Consider also that Josephus alone (just one of the Jewish generals) had command of 100,000 men (WARS OF THE JEWS [Book 1 Chapter 20 Section 6 Page 498) and that was just a small part of the Jewish soldiers outside Jerusalem. Generals were also appointed to defend: Idumea, Jericho, Perea, the toparchy of Thamma; Lydda was also added to this, and Joppa and Emmaus. Also, the toparchies of Gophnitica and Acrabastene; and Josephus was over both the Galilees. Gamala also, which was the strongest city in those parts, was put under his command.(WARS OF THE JEWS [Book I.chapter 20 section 6 page 498)
Titus would inherit the progress of his father Vespasian, and not have to worry about a 2 front war, since all the countryside had been cleaned up. Also, Titus would come equipped with: "the whole army, including the auxiliaries sent by the kings, as well horsemen as footmen, when all were united together, amounted to sixty thousand, besides the servants, who, as they followed in vast numbers, so because they had beén trained up in war with the rest, ought not to be distinguished from the fighting men; for as they were in their masters’ service in times of peace, so did they undergo the like dangers with them in times of war, insomuch that they were inferior to none, either in skill or in strength, only they were subject to their masters." WARS-B3-C4 Page 504
Cestius would be completely surrounded during a 5 month siege (or longer due to the corn), by Josephus army on the outside, and the zealots army of Talmudic Jews on the inside of the city (over 3 million civilians) sallying forth out of the city to battle Cestius opposite Josephus. WARS-B2-C14 Page 484
All Cestius had was (appox 20k men total) i.e. the 12th legion (assume 5,000 men), plus 11,000 footmen and 4,300 horse as Auxiliaries donated by neighboring kings WARS-B2-C18-S9 Page 494 While Titus had over 65,000 men, Auxiliaries included. But Cestius had the advantage of stopping the revolt while it was still in its infancy. Most inside the city relished no war with Rome, but only wanted to get rid of Florus. Josephus list at least 3 occasions when the leading men of the city came close to just opening the citys' gates to Cestius and surrendering (over the objections of the Zealots). Cestius had no network of spys inside the city to constantly take the temperature of the city. If he had, he would have conquered, merely by his presence and timing. But then Gods vengeance would not be worked. Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance
and then how would Jesus prophecies come true about "not one stone will be left upon another".
Add to all this, if Cestius stayed, it would surely mean the destruction of this beautiful temple, renowned all over the world, which Cestius probably would have been equally as reluctant to destroy as Titus was. So Cestius broke off the engagement and went into retreat, not knowing how galling that retreat would be. He would lose over 5000 men along with much supplies, weaponry, engines of war, to the Talmudic Jews out of Jerusalem. See WARS-B2-C19 page 496. Here Josephus tells us when the Abomination that causes Desolation gets "set up" or "established" a better translation per Jordan. "This defeat" (of cestius) happened on the eighth day of the month Dios Pmachecran (November-December) in the twelfth year of the reign of Nero. (note: 66 AD, since claudius died in 54). See Eleazar as the Abomination that Causes Desolation
1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
God tested Titus (30 years old first time general, though he had seen action with his father in Britain) with pity, with competition (vain glory), and with despair. WARS-B5-C11 CHAPTER XI p 564-565
Rapture 6 How can God say that "not one hair of your head shall perish," thru the Great Tribulation?
Luke 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions,
(Judea revolted in 66, A revolt in Gaul against the emperor Nero, began in March 68, and it was followed by other revolts in Spain, Africa, and Egypt that set in motion a series of events that led to Nero's suicide a couple months later on June 8.) be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end
(end of the world, i.e. their world as they knew it, end of the age, i.e. Old Testament Age, which ended in 70 AD) is not by and by. (Matt 24:6 is not yet).
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers
(various) places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
(armies seen in the skies over Jerusalem, face of a man [Jesus] that continued all night, sword hanging over Jerusalem, voices in the temple saying "let us remove hence", huge gate swinging open all by itself, as if opening up a way for enemies to enter. See Josephus Wars of the Jews and Antiquities for all these signs. Wars.B6.C5.S3. page 582)
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they
(ie. the Jews and the Romans) shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
AD64 Nero blaming the fire of Rome on the Christians, launching an empire wide persecution)
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Note Mark 13:9 says "for a testimony against them."
Here Mark also inserts: Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Note, Paul said that happened during his lifetime, in fact "to every creature under heaven"
see also "these men who have turned the world upside down"
Luke 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
This does NOT mean Christians today, when called into court, should not prepare, and research the law before hand. That was a special time back then, called the Great Tribulation, which would (Mark 13:19) never be repeated.
Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Mark 13:11 but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Note: you will become as bold as Stephen in Acts 7.
Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed
(to the Romans) both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish
(the vast majority of pre 65AD Christians would get raptured, even though a multitude did get martyred, per Tacitus [see beginnning of this article] and per Rev 6:11).
19 In your patience possess ye your souls. Note: Mark 13:13 says "but he that shall
endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
So that's how God can say that "not one hair of your head shall perish," thru the Great Tribulation, i.e. because of the Rapture in AD 65. Note: No other commentator can explain how God can claim "not one hair" at a time like this, unless they spiritualize it, and say God is taking the long term view of eternity. Relatively speaking, they will be up in heaven for all eternity and so it will seem like if we average out their injuries over time, it will seem like "not one hair of their heads perished". This is a cop out.
Rapture 7 What are other Bible Scholars saying about the Rapture
Dave Chilton, in Days of Vengeance pages 635-638 says:
While I do not have the space to demonstrate the point, this means that the separation spoken of by premillennialists - the Rapture - is not in accord with the parables of the kingdom. The Rapture comes at the end of time. (comment: Chiltons continual erroneous assumption) The "wheat" cannot be removed from the field until that final day, (AD 70 when the age ended, if Chilton would just open his eyes) when we are caught up to meet Christ in the clouds (I Thess. 4:17). There is indeed a Rapture, but it comes at the end of time (erroneous assumption.)- when the reapers (angels) harvest the wheat and the tares. There is a Rapture, but it is a postmillennial Rapture.
Why a postmillennial Rapture, the amiIlennialist may say? Why not simply point out that the Rapture comes at the end of time and let matters drop? The answer is important: We must deal with the question of the development of the wheat and tares. We must see that this process of time leads to Christian victory on earth and in time.
Chilton commenting on Rev 2:9,10 on page 135 of Days of Vengeance "Not only is Christ the First and the Last, but He was dead, and has come to life: He is completely victorious over death and the grave as the "first fruits" of all those who die in the Lord (l Cor. 15:20-22), guaranteeing our resurrection as well, so that even "death is swallowed up in victory" (l Cor. 15:54).
Regardless of the force and cruelty of their persecutors, the Christians in Smyrna cannot be defeated, either in this life or the next. (comment: True as far as their persevering in the faith, but Christ also wants to lessen their suffering, i.e. "unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved". It is Christian life Jesus is talking about here, and life back on earth, not eternal life. Continuing on w. Chiltons quote:) "But it was not easy to be a Christian in Smyrna. Certainly, they didn't get "raptured" out of their tribulation;"
Days of Vengeance, p 128
Chilton continues: Rev 10-11 Because the persecuted Christians of Philadelphia had
kept the word of perseverance, their Lord promises in return to
keep them from the hour of testing. Note well: Christ is not
promising to rapture them or to take them away, but to keep
them. In other words, He is promising to preserve them in trial, to keep them from falling (Jude 24). Although this is one of the verses that dispensationalists have claimed for support of the
"pre-tribulation rapture" theory, on close examination it actually reveals itself to be nothing of the sort. In fact, it says nothing about the end of the world or the Second Coming at all: The "hour of testing" spoken of here is identified as that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the Land. It is speaking of the period of tribulation which, in the experience of the first-century readers, was about to come.
Does it make sense that Christ would promise the church in Philadelphia protection from something that would happen thousands of years later? "Be of good cheer, you faithful, suffering Christians of first-century Asia Minor: I won't let those Soviet missiles and Killer Bees of the 20th century get you!"
When the Philadelphian Christians were worried about more practical, immediate concerns - official persecution, religious discrimination, social ostracism, and economic boycotts - what
did they care about Hal Lindsey's lucrative horror stories? By twisting such passages as these to suit their passing fancies, certain modern dispensationalists have added to the Word of God, and detracted from its message; and they thus come under the
curses of Revelation 22:18-19.
No, the promised hour of testing was in the immediate future, as Scripture universally testifies; a mere hour of trial, to be replaced by a thousand years of rule (20:4-6). St. John uses
the expression those who dwell on the Land twelve times in Revelation (once for each of the twelve tribes) to refer to apostate Israel (3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10 [twicel; 13:8, 12, 14 [twice]; 14:6; 17:2, 8). In the Greek Old Testament (the version used by the
early Church), it is a common prophetic expression for rebellious, idolatrous Israel about to be destroyed and driven from the Land (Jer. 1:14; 10:18; Ezek. 7:7; 36:17; Hos. 4:1, 3; Joel 1:2,
14; 2:1; Zeph. 1:18), based on its original usage in the historical
books of the Bible for rebellious, idolatrous pagans about to be
destroyed and driven from the Land (Num. 32:17; 33:52, 55; Josh. 7:9; 9:24; Judg. 1:32; 2 Sam. 5:6; 1 Chron. 11:4; 22:18; Neh. 9:24); Israel has become a nation of pagans, and is about
to be destroyed, exiled, and supplanted by a new nation, the Church. (comment: hooray! Finally, a Christian author courageous enough to go against the Christian Zionist, ADL, AIPAC, counterfeit-Jew Talmudic Jew juggernaught that seems to rule the world today.)
Days of Vengeance, p 145-147
The Pattern for Worship (Rev 4:1-11)
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first Voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said: Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.
2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a Throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting 3 like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the Throne, like an emerald in appearance.
4 And around the Throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. ...
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the Throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the Throne, saying:
11
Worthy art Thou, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created.
1 This verse is used by advocates of Dispensationalism to support their "Rapture Theory," the notion that the Church will be snatched away from this world before a coming Tribulation;
indeed, this verse seems to be the main proof-text for a pre-Tribulation rapture. St. John's "rapture" into heaven is regarded as a sign that the whole Church will disappear before the plagues recorded in the following chapters are poured out. Part of the rationale for this understanding is that the Voice John heard was like the sound of a trumpet, and St. Paul says that a trumpet will sound at the "rapture" (l Thess. 4:16). Some advocates of this position seem oblivious to the fact that God uses a trumpet on numerous occasions. In fact, as we have seen in the first chapter, the connection between God's Voice and the sound of a trumpet occurs throughout Scripture, beginning with the judgment in the Garden of Eden. For that matter, St. John heard the voice like a trumpet in the first vision (Rev. 1:10). (Does this indicate a possible "double rapture"?)!
The Dispensationalist school of interpretation also appeals to the fact that, after the Voice has said Come up here, "The word 'church' does not again occur in the Revelation till all is fulfilled."2 This singular observation is set forth as abundant proof that the Book of Revelation does not speak of the "Church"3 from this point until the Second Coming (generally I. But wait! Chapters 8-11 record the soundings of no less than seven more trumpets - could there be nine raptures?
2. The Scofield Reference Bible (New York: Oxford University Press, [l909J
1945), note on Rev. 4:1; cr. Hal Lindsey, There's a New World Coming: A Prophetic Odyssey (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1973), pp. 74ff.
3. The Dispensationalist use of the word Church is very different from its
use in historical, orthodox theology. See O. T. Allis, Prophecy and the Church (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1945, 1947), pp. 54-110; L. Berkhof,
Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.,
fourth revised ed., 1949), pp. 562-78; and Roderick Campbell, Israel and the
New Covenant (Tyler, TX: Geneva Ministries, [l954J 1983).
placed in 19:11), which in turn proves that the Church has been raptured and is absent, in heaven, away from all the excitement- all because the word "Church" is missing!
On the basis of such a curious principle of interpretation we could say with assurance that Revelation doesn't tell us anything about Jesus either until
chapter 12, because the name "Jesus" does not occur until then (thus "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" and "the Lamb that was slain" [5:5-6] must be terms for someone else).4 Of course, this method of interpretation involves even more problems for the Dispensationalist: for the word "Church" never again appears in the entire Book of Revelation at all! This interpretation of the words Come up here does not, therefore, support the pretribulation rapture of the Church; it possibly even teaches the pretribulation annihilation of the Church. After the last verse in Revelation 3, the Church simply disappears, and is never heard from again.
Obviously, this is not true. The Church is known by numerous names and descriptions throughout the Bible, and the mere fact that the single term "Church" does not appear is no indication that the concept of the Church is not present. Those who see in this verse some "rapture" of the Church are importing it into the text. The only one "raptured" is St. John himself. The fact is that St. John only uses the word Church with reference to
particular congregations - not for the (church universal) whole body of Christ. Comment: Just because God says to John "come up here" doesn't mean he bodily arose. Remember Paul said he knew of a man who had ascended into the 3rd heaven, whether in the body or out of the body, he did not know. Thus, John may just have seen a heavenly vision from a "way up there" perspective, all the while his body stayed here on earth, only to get raptured in 65AD.